Choice of games:3NT or 5-2 fit in a major?

[Chamaco]

[hv=d=e&v=b&n=skj9xxhaqjxxdxxcq&s=sxxhtxdaqtxxcaxxx]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

Hi all,

I would appreciate comments on this bidding.

 

Both sides were vulnerable, in a close team match.

 

The problem is how to choose between:

a. game or partscore;

b. if game, game in 3NT or 4M.

 

 

East was dealer, and North opened in 4th seat.

 

E.......S.......W.......N

p.......p.......p.......1S (Precision, 5+♠, max 15)

p.......2D.....p.......2H

p.......2NT...p.......3H

p.......3NT all pass

 

All bids after the limited openings are natural, no special gadgets available.

 

3NT was a hopeless contract after a club lead (H K was onside but H did not break) .

After the hand:

- North stated that 3NT by South was a "shutout bid";

- S said that, since in their system, 2NT denies any singleton, N should have pulled to 4S because his spade suit would be close to worthless in 3NT.

- South added that the choice of game should have been made by the one that held the 55, because he only could know the quality of these suits.

- North replied that South should have preferred anyways the suit contract because the Axx(x) stopper is usually better in a suit contract; holding QJ9x (slow tricks, useless vs shortness), South should have preferred instead 3NT.

Basically North said that the choice of game should not be made by the one who knows the quality of the 2-suiter, but by the one who knows the quality of the stoppers in the critical suit.

 

 

I'd appreciate comments :)

 

Thanks !

 

Mauro

[EricK]

I wouldn't have been keen to suggest NT once with the South hand let alone twice!

 

When the hands are a misfit, you often need extra points to make a NT contract. Here, with North having at most 15 HCP and likely having a singleton in one of your suits the chance of 3NT making are slight.

 

As far as the comments are concerned, North's seem largely accurate and South's seem like a desperate effort to avoid admitting to a mistake.

 

North has told South about his major suits and South has bid NT twice. North has a doubleton in South's first suit and (what appears to him to be) a fitting honour in the Club suit. To take out 3NT into 4M would be crazy IMO.

 

Eric

[whereagles]

1S 2D

2H 2NT

3H pass

 

3NT is misjudged. Pard didn't jump to 3H after 2D, so he is on the 11-13/6-loser range. That makes 3NT the most hopeless of contracts.

[helene_t]

Agree with Whereagles. But if South have to bid game, he can take a false preference to spades.

[Walddk]

I think 2♦ is an overbid; I would have bid 1NT myself, then give preference to spades over 2♥. In my book 1NT shows 6-10, and not 6-9 as many play it. Looking at the South hand, it doesn't take too much imagination to predict what opener's next bid will be: 2♥ or 2♠.

 

If opener passes 1NT, he has a balanced weak hand. 5332, 5233, 5323, and we haven't missed any game.

 

By the way, if the bidding goes:

 

1♠ - 1NT

2♥

 

I recommend that you play 2NT as a sound heart raise, and 3♥ as a weakish raise, catering to opener having a maximum for his 2♥ (17-18, unless you play a strong club system). Playing 2NT as natural has little merit. Notrump produces very few tricks on a misfit.

 

The same applies to any sequence where the auction goes:

 

1x - 1y

2z

 

Where z is lower ranking than x.

 

Roland

[helene_t]

Roland, this pair is playing Precision, that makes a difference.

 

In Precision, South is about as strong as he can possible be with a passed hand - many would say stronger. So I don't think 2♦ is an overbid.

[the hog]

I agree with Roland. Though Sth has a max passed hand he does not have a primary fit for either of Nth suits. I prefer to begin with 1N. If you must begin with 2D, then surely the second bid by responder must be 2S not 2N.

 

1S 2D 2H 2S

Nth might bid 3H, (I wouldn't), but Sth should just bid 3S. Its obvious 3N will have little or no play.

[Walddk]

Roland, this pair is playing Precision, that makes a difference.

I am fully aware of the fact that this pair is playing Precision. That makes the 1NT response even more obvious, especially when you have a small doubleton spade, and the same in hearts, which will be the likely rebid if opener has a 2-suiter.

 

Roland

[mikestar]

North is correct except in his description of 3NT as a "shutout bid"--there is no such thing opposite a partner who is unlimited in either strength or shape. Give North a sixth spade and a club void and he bids 4S over 3NT. But he has no reason to overrule South on his actual hand.

[Free]

I just wouldn't bid game as well... Perhaps 4M makes, but I don't like any of the contracts.

[Chamaco]

I think 2♦ is an overbid; I would have bid 1NT myself, then give preference to spades over 2♥. In my book 1NT shows 6-10, and not 6-9 as many play it. Looking at the South hand, it doesn't take too much imagination to predict what opener's next bid will be: 2♥ or 2♠.

Roland,

one question here.

 

Don't you think that 2D may be more helpful to pard, considering it is a passed hand ?

It does tell pard we have a fair 5 card suit and 10 hcp (with 11 hcp and a 5 bagger we tend to open in Precision).

 

Now, in reality North held:

 

♠ KJ9xx

♥ AQJxx

♦ xx

♣ Q

 

and 1NT works well.

 

But if pard had held instead the diamond Q, say a

♠ KJ9xx

♥ AQJxx

♦ Qx

♣ x

 

then perhaps a 2D bid instead of 1NT would help North to evaluate the fitting honor ?

 

It seems to me that 2D is right on values (10 hcp with 2 Aces, a hand close to opening hand values) and it does tell where South's strength is.

South may suspect that N will rebid hearts, but still 2D by a passed hand should, IMO promise a hand similar to this one, considering that almost any 11 count with a 5 bagger is opened.

[Walddk]

In Precision, South is about as strong as he can possible be with a passed hand - many would say stronger. So I don't think 2♦ is an overbid.

Additionally, after South overbid his hand on his first turn, there is no need to do it again. A simple 2♠ preference is plenty. It is hardly a surprise for opener that responder has 10 hcp and a small doubleton spade on that auction.

 

For 2NT to be right, South must be able to visualise a source of tricks. He can't with the hand he has. Give him Hx in spades and there may be a case for rebidding 2NT.

 

Roland

[inquiry]

The 2♦ bid, by a passed hand is fine, as long as the 2♦ bidder is steeled to take preference to 2♠ over 2♥ (just as he would if opener had rebid 2♥ over 1NT). The 2NT bid should have much better "spot" cards in diamonds and clubs... maybe AT97 of clubs and AQT9x of diamonds. After bidding 2NT and partner rebids 3♥, you have a misfit and partner isn't on top of his auction, since he didn't jump to 3♥ over 2♦ so pass (no need for "false preference now") is my choice (Tx is better than xx). The second reason I like pass, is it keeps partner from bidding again. With this misfit, we have bid enough.

[Free]

I can agree with the 2♦ bid, but not with the 2NT. You already showed your strength, your suit, and after the 2♥ rebid from opener, I think you just have to show a suit preference 2♠. Let partner decide if he can continue or not.

[whereagles]

The 2NT bid should have much better "spot" cards in diamonds and clubs... maybe AT97 of clubs and AQT9x of diamonds.

Hum.. you could also bid 2NT with better cards in the MAJORS, like for instance Jx Qx, or Kx Tx.

[han]

In a light opening system, a passed hand should never be able to force to 3NT after partner makes only minimal bids. So clearly, south overbid, whether it is with 2D, 2NT or 3NT (or perhaps all three bids).

[Walddk]

Roland,

one question here.

 

Don't you think that 2D may be more helpful to pard, considering it is a passed hand ?

I am not saying that 2♦ is a serious overbid by any means; I am merely trying to argue for why I think 1NT is better. You will not miss a game if partner passes 1NT when you have a 2254 hand and 10 hcp.

 

Having said that, it's important to add that if you do bid 2♦, you have now shown your hand once and for all. It is therefore unreasonable to tell partner that you have extras of some kind by rebidding 2NT.

 

2♠ stands out a mile after

 

p - 1♠

2♦ - 2♥

2♠

 

If opener can't bid again, we have not missed anything big, and please bear in mind that a 3♥ bid opener now not only shows 5-5, but it also shows extras where I come from.

 

Some may have a different agreement, but I think mine is sounder.

 

Roland

[luis]

I like 2♦ 10 points, 2NT wouldn't be my choice but I accept it, 6 points. 3NT is terrible if launched to game then I think 4s is better than 3NT.

I like to play game in this hand, no problem going down one or 2 in 4M