Double then new suit forcing?

[waychan]

1♦ (1♠) dbl (pass)

2♥ pass 3♣

Is it forcing or non-forcing? Which is better?

2♣ forcing 1rd, but not promise a rebid. thx

[flytoox]

I think it is not forcing, just offer a choice. Pd's hand is about invitational and the shape should be 1462 or 2461. If opener has 4 good hearts, he can rebid 3H or 4H, if his heart is bad ans short he can pass 3D.

[ochinko]

What was the meaning of the double? If it was negative meaning "partner please chose between clubs and hearts" then it is clearly a forcing to 3H because partner has already made the choice. But I have no idea what 3C should mean - promising solid clubs, or asking for a clubs support as well.

[Free]

Over here most play this as 1 round force

[mike777]

Game forcing if you play negative free bids.

 

Playing 2clubs forcing one round but does not promise rebid would seem to have many problems with that style.

[han]

Depends on your agreement of what the double means. If it guarantees four hearts, then 3C is clearly forcing, probably a natural game try in hearts.

 

btw, 2H does not show an invitational hand but a minimal hand. With invitational values, jump to 3H, with gameforcing values, cuebid 2S.

[luke warm]

without discussion (nfb, etc) i'd play this as 100% forcing...

[HeartA]

Without NFB, this 3♣ is not forcing, nor it gurantees (usually it denies, imo) 4-card of ♥. It shows a hand of 6+ ♣, that is not strong enough for direct 2♣ bid (forcing to game or just one round needs agreement between partners, I think it is forcing to game), or weak for 3♣ (wjs?).

[waychan]

♠Kx ♥Qxxx ♦Axxxx ♣Qx

♠xxx ♥Ax ♦Qx ♣AKJ10xx

♠x ♥Axxx ♦Qx ♣AJ10xxx

1♦ 1♠ 2♣ pass

2♥ pass ?

1♦ 1♠ Dbl pass

2♥ pass ?

1♦ 1♠ 2♣ 2♠

pass pass ?

1♦ 1♠ Dbl 2♠

pass pass ?

[mike777]

Opener hand is very typical when playing light opening system so my response structure is stronger than most.

 

If LHO passes:

 

Hand 1A) Neg x and rebid 3c game force.

Hand 1B) Neg x and rebid 3h invite.

 

If LHO bids 2s:

Hand 2A) neg x and rebid 3c game force

Hand 2B) neg x and then balance over 2s with X.

[jdulmage]

I would expect something like 3 hearts, 5 clubs, 8 HCP. Something weird like that.

[pclayton]

Lazy thinking says its not forcing. NFB isn't standard, but its beside the point.

 

Pard has to have 4 hearts for the double. This is isn't a "2 features" auction, like 1♠ - (2♥) - dbl is.

 

Its a game try - pick your poison. No different than 1♦ - 1♥ - 2♥ - 3♣.

[Gerben42]

pclayton, NFB isn't standard FOR YOU. For me it is.

 

In the given sequence 2♣ would have been forcing so now 3♣ is not forcing. It means: I have a NFB in ♣ but I can not bid this in some other way.

[mike777]

pclayton, NFB isn't standard FOR YOU. For me it is.

 

In the given sequence 2♣ would have been forcing so now 3♣ is not forcing. It means: I have a NFB in ♣ but I can not bid this in some other way.

If playing NFB then 2clubs is not forcing, hence the name NEGATIVE.

[HeartA]

pclayton, NFB isn't standard FOR YOU. For me it is.

 

In the given sequence 2♣ would have been forcing so now 3♣ is not forcing. It means: I have a NFB in ♣ but I can not bid this in some other way.

If playing NFB then 2clubs is not forcing, hence the name NEGATIVE.

Agree. Direct 2C is not forcing, if play NFB. 3C after dbl is forcing.

[inquiry]

♠Kx ♥Qxxx ♦Axxxx ♣Qx

 

1♦ 1♠ 2♣ pass

2♥ pass ?

 

I would not bid 2♣ with this hand on Qx, so forget this auction

 

1♦ 1♠ Dbl pass

2♥ pass ?

 

Pass. If opener can do no more than 2♥, we are high enough, although I might also bid 3♦ if non-forcing.

 

waychan asked about these ahnds and these auctions... here is my take on them.

 

1♦ 1♠ 2♣ 2♠

pass pass ?

 

I would not bid 2♣

 

1♦ 1♠ Dbl 2♠

pass pass ?

 

I would bid a good 3♦ as part of good/bad

 

============================================

 

♠xxx ♥Ax ♦Qx ♣AKJ10xx

 

1♦ 1♠ 2♣ pass

2♥ pass ?

 

3♣ good hand (assume not playing NFB here), unable to bid anything else constructive.

 

1♦ 1♠ Dbl pass

2♥ pass ?

 

I would not double with this hand, unless playing NFB. Playing negative free bids, I would now bid 3♣ showing clubs, and putting the ball back into partners court to figure out what is going on.

 

1♦ 1♠ 2♣ 2♠

pass pass ?

 

3♣'s, what else? Still good hand. No heart support (cause I could double here to imply heart interest), no notrump stopper (cause I could bid 2NT).

 

1♦ 1♠ Dbl 2♠

pass pass ?

 

I would not double unless I was playing NFB. IF I was playing NFB, I would bid 3♣ now, forcing.

 

=====================================

 

♠x ♥Axxx ♦Qx ♣AJ10xxx

 

1♦ 1♠ 2♣ pass

2♥ pass ?

 

2♠ forcing cue-bid, game try. I probably will not stop short of game anyway. 2♠ will be the last aggressive bid I make on this hand.

 

1♦ 1♠ Dbl pass

2♥ pass ?

 

2♠ again.

 

 

1♦ 1♠ 2♣ 2♠

pass pass ?

 

Double this time, showing hearts, compare to 3♣ above on previous hand.

 

1♦ 1♠ Dbl 2♠

pass pass ?

 

Dbl again, also showing hearts and clubs.

 

Ben

[cherdano]

♠Kx ♥Qxxx ♦Axxxx ♣Qx

 

1♦ 1♠ Dbl pass

2♥ pass ?

 

Pass. If opener can do no more than 2♥, we are high enough, although I might also bid 3♦ if non-forcing.

Wow. You have a likely 8-9 double fit, 9 working points plus an extra queen for free, two ruffing values, and you don't have a game invite?

I don't doubt you are right, just shows again how light you(r partners) open. Would you agree that this is a clear game invite opposite a "modern standard light" opening, or am I misjudging this hand?

 

Arend

[inquiry]

♠Kx ♥Qxxx ♦Axxxx  ♣Qx

 

1♦ 1♠ Dbl pass

2♥ pass ?

 

Pass. If opener can do no more than 2♥, we are high enough, although I might also bid 3♦ if non-forcing.

Wow. You have a likely 8-9 double fit, 9 working points plus an extra queen for free, two ruffing values, and you don't have a game invite?

I don't doubt you are right, just shows again how light you(r partners) open. Would you agree that this is a clear game invite opposite a "modern standard light" opening, or am I misjudging this hand?

 

Arend

How certain are you that your partner has four hearts?

[mike777]

Must admit I would make one more try for game at the table with that hand at imps.

[Flame]

Im surprise to there isnt a simple consensus here.

This bid is your way to show a hand not strong enough for imidiate 2c, so its oviously not forcing.

[Free]

Im surprise to there isnt a simple consensus here.

This bid is your way to show a hand not strong enough for imidiate 2c, so its oviously not forcing.

Many play 2♣ as NF, so as a result of this, Dbl followed by a suit is at least forcing for 1 round. However, if you don't play negative freebids, then this would rather be NF (but what is pass followed by some ♣s?).

[flytoox]

♠Kx ♥Qxxx ♦Axxxx  ♣Qx

 

1♦ 1♠ Dbl pass

2♥ pass ?

 

Pass. If opener can do no more than 2♥, we are high enough, although I might also bid 3♦ if non-forcing.

Wow. You have a likely 8-9 double fit, 9 working points plus an extra queen for free, two ruffing values, and you don't have a game invite?

I don't doubt you are right, just shows again how light you(r partners) open. Would you agree that this is a clear game invite opposite a "modern standard light" opening, or am I misjudging this hand?

 

Arend

How certain are you that your partner has four hearts?

Ben, I think you cannt(should not) pass 2H. Yes, 2H doesnt promise four. That is why we shoudl make another move by 3D. This should show 4H,4+D and invitational hand. In this case I think we can have the cake and eat it.

[pclayton]

pclayton, NFB isn't standard FOR YOU. For me it is.

 

In the given sequence 2♣ would have been forcing so now 3♣ is not forcing. It means: I have a NFB in ♣ but I can not bid this in some other way.

If playing NFB then 2clubs is not forcing, hence the name NEGATIVE.

Agree. Direct 2C is not forcing, if play NFB. 3C after dbl is forcing.

In a pick up partnership, I wouldn't expect NFB to be on. I'm not an authority on what is standard in other parts of the world, but I still wouldn't think NFB are standard anywhere. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

If we agree that our double shows 4 hearts (it does for me anyway) and partner reveals a fit, then as I stated before, 3♣ is a game try.

 

Of course, playing NFB, the double is just a "punt" and the conversion to 3♣ is the slow way of showing a good hand with clubs.

[inquiry]

Ben, I think you cannt(should not) pass 2H. Yes, 2H doesnt promise four. That is why we shoudl make another move by 3D. This should show 4H,4+D and invitational hand. In this case I think we can have the cake and eat it.

Yes I like a construcitve 3♦ bid here non-forcing, and mentioned that possibility.

 

Now then, my recommended pass is conservative I admit... perhaps from playing too long with ultra light openings. The spade king is well placed (in theory) and worth more than it might seem, but my hearts are weak. Give me QTxx or Q97x and I would not be quite so conservative. The possibility of 4-3 fit is real to me however, so Qxxx is a little scary.

 

From a loser count (7 losers) this is an invite hand. Partner rates to have 7 or 8 losers for his 2♥ rebid. If he has seven, game is reasonable shot. From ZAR perspective, game try is necessary as well, as this hand has 25 points, and partner rates to have 26 minium so game invite is surely the book bid. The problem is hands like...

 

♠Qx ♥Kxxx ♦KQJx ♣Jxx. here we can lose 1S, 2/3H, 2C. and go down even in two hearts against unlucky 4-1 trump split. Now this is pestimtic. Partner could also be...

 

♠Ax ♥Kxx ♦QTxxx ♣Axx where you have a club, a diamond, and surely three heart losers. The real question becomes, how strong the 2♥ bid can be. I open 14 point balanced hands 1NT, so if partner had 14 he would open 1NT if balanced, and with 14/15 and unbalanced, he would jump to 3♥. So he is either 11-13 balanced or 11-13 unbalanced. Opposite 11-13 balanced, we are high enough. Opposite unbalanced, something in my hand might be wasted. Let's consider,

 

♠x ♥KJxx ♦KQxxx ♣Kxx. now we lose 1♣, 1♥, 1♠, but they might be able to obtain a ♦ ruff, and we still ahve to worry about 4-1 heart split. BTW, my partenr would jump to 3♥ with this hand (with fit and 6 losers plus hook value in hearts, 2♥ an underbid) and WE STILL have a chance to go down.

 

Another hand, where you are in trouble on the get go is something like....

♠QJx ♥AKxx ♦KQxx ♣xx, the defense might start spade ace, spade ruff, cub king, spade ruff, club Ace... and you are down in 3♥ before you can turn around.

 

Once again, I admit that pass of 2♥ is timid. I admit I like a non-forcing 3♦ here to show 4♥ and some game interest. I admit that one could draw up many more hands where game is laydown opposite this raise to two. I just devaluate the north hand due to 1) the weak heart spots, 2) the Qx of clubs in not worht 2 pts, 3) the Kx of spades is plus minus value. The bidders here maybe right, and especially vul at imps (Where you probably should just blast to game rather than invite)... why blast game there? Two reasons, partner is less likely to open on junk balanced hand raising the expected minimum for 2H rebid, and game reward vul is more valuable when vul.

 

Ben

[HeartA]

n a pick up partnership, I wouldn't expect NFB to be on. I'm not an authority on what is standard in other parts of the world, but I still wouldn't think NFB are standard anywhere. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

If we agree that our double shows 4 hearts (it does for me anyway) and partner reveals a fit, then as I stated before, 3♣ is a game try.

 

Of course, playing NFB, the double is just a "punt" and the conversion to 3♣ is the slow way of showing a good hand with clubs.

Agree.

 

Without NFB, 3C should not forcing. That is another point. Without a strong hand and 4-card ♥ and 5+ card ♣, I would bid 2♣ first and 2/3♥ (if available) on next turn.