Yet another how do bid the slam?

[badderzboy]

[hv=d=s&v=n&n=skqj5hkq10dck107542&s=s62ha7532dakj10caj]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

Our bidding went 1♥-2♣-3♦-3♠FSF-4♥-PPP

 

Now I think that North should Ace Ask here in our system as I've promised a big hand with reverse?

 

Q1 - How would u bid it and which bids do u disagree with (It was ACOL but would SAYC 2/1 differ?

 

Q2 - Swap A ♦ for A♠ - how do u find or do u try to find 7 (assuming 3-2 split in ♥)?

 

Steve

[whereagles]

Correct bidding would be (sayc):

 

1H 2C

2D 3H (forcing.. with 10-11 bid 2H, with 12-14 bid 4H, so 3H shows 15+)

4C 5D (voidwood)

5N 6H (1 key is out. If no key out, you can try 7 if you're feeling lucky)

 

Not all play voidwood, but even so it should be fairly easy at that stage to bid at least 6.

[Brandal]

[hv=d=s&v=n&n=skqj5hkq10dck107542&s=s62ha7532dakj10caj]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

Our bidding went 1♥-2♣-3♦-3♠FSF-4♥-PPP

 

Now I think that North should Ace Ask here in our system as I've promised a big hand with reverse?

 

Q1 - How would u bid it and which bids do u disagree with (It was ACOL but would SAYC 2/1 differ?

 

Q2 - Swap A ♦ for A♠ - how do u find or do u try to find 7 (assuming 3-2 split in ♥)?

 

Steve

The way I play FSF 3NT would in this particular case

show the Ace of spades,so I would also bid 4H.

 

If I were the north hand I would definitely go further

and end up in 6H

[mr1303]

In Acol, this sequence is good:

 

1H 2C

3D (GF) 3H (PFA)

4C (cue) 4D (cue)

4H (no spade control) 4S (control)

4NT (RKCB) etc etc

[ochinko]

We always bid our 4-card major first when it's on the first level. That way we avoid the awkward situation when you have 4:4 fit but it's the fourth suit that you bid and you can't see it. So the bidding goes:

 

1H - 1Sp

2D - 3C not natural but helping to know whether partner stops clubs as well

3NT - ?

 

Well, so much for the science... I can't make a voidwood in partner's suit or show a first round control. 4NT would be quantitative as there was no fit found. I can still try a 4C Gerber even with a void because as partner has at least CQ the slam makes with any three Aces from him.

 

Some may ask why would I investigate a slam without an Ace and a void in partner's second suit, but I have only 4 losers, it was partner that opened, I see the fit, there's hardly any possibility to go down in 5H if partner has only 2 aces.

[TimG]

Dealer: South Vul: N/S Scoring: IMP

♠ KQJ5 ♥ KQ10 ♦ [space] ♣ K107542 ♠ 62 ♥ A7532 ♦ AKJ10 ♣ AJ

 

Our bidding went 1♥-2♣-3♦-3♠FSF-4♥-PPP

Does FSF really apply after a game force has already been established? I don't think many experts would play it that way. In this case, it is definitely a punt, hoping opener can bid 3NT with a stopper. But, why do that when responder can help opener out by showing the heart fit.

 

Why did opener expect 4H to be a good contract? In fact, after responder failed to bid 3H the round before, opener should know that 4H is NOT playable. I think opener should have bid 4C instead of 4H.

Correct bidding would be (sayc):

 

1H 2C

2D 3H (forcing.. with 10-11 bid 2H, with 12-14 bid 4H, so 3H shows 15+)

This doesn't seem right. Isn't FSF part of SAYC? If so, the jump to 3H shows an invitational hand. To force, go through 4th suit.

 

Tim

[TimG]

We always bid our 4-card major first when it's on the first level. That way we avoid the awkward situation when you have 4:4 fit but it's the fourth suit that you bid and you can't see it. So the bidding goes:

 

1H - 1Sp

2D - 3C not natural but helping to know whether partner stops clubs as well

3NT - ?

So, you're willing to give up ever showing your six-card suit in order to avoid a potential FSF problem?

[whereagles]

1H 2C

2D 3H (forcing.. with 10-11 bid 2H, with 12-14 bid 4H, so 3H shows 15+)

 

This doesn't seem right. Isn't FSF part of SAYC? If so, the jump to 3H shows an invitational hand. To force, go through 4th suit.

Think about it better and you'll see I have a point.

[hotShot]

Doesn't 3♦ show 6♥ and 4♦ or maybe 5-5?

What is your agreement of FSF?

Since the Jump to 3♦ is a game force, any additionals forcing is at least slam invite.

Does FSF from partner include hands with fit in your suit, or is excluding a fit in your suits?

If it's including, partner wants to know if the aim in 6/7 NT or 6/7♥. If it's excluding, he promisses solid ♠ and ♣ control with at leat 5♣ and 4♠ and wants to know if your ♥ and ♦ are good enough for NT.

 

Without agreement, I would not expect 3♠ to be FSF now. But you said it is, so be it.

In any case, 3NT and 4♥ are likely to end the auction, bidding game is usually a way to turn down a slam invitation. So I would bid 4♣. Partner can hardly expect more than 2 cards in that suit, and it makes clear that i'm interested in discussing that slam invitation more precise.

[ochinko]

We always bid our 4-card major first when it's on the first level. That way we avoid the awkward situation when you have 4:4 fit but it's the fourth suit that you bid and you can't see it. So the bidding goes:

 

1H - 1Sp

2D - 3C not natural but helping to know whether partner stops clubs as well

3NT - ?

So, you're willing to give up ever showing your six-card suit in order to avoid a potential FSF problem?

I plead the Hamman's rule: "When you have to chose between 5m and 3NT, NT is a safer bet." (or something like that) If the minor is the last to appear at the table, even more so. Yes, I do it with 5-card minors all the time, and I don't mind doing it with a 6-card minor here. Most of the time the defenders are going to be more disapointed by my unbid minor length than my partner.

[inquiry]

[hv=d=s&v=n&n=skqj5hkq10dck107542&s=s62ha7532dakj10caj]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

Our bidding went 1♥-2♣-3♦-3♠FSF-4♥-PPP

The auction presented confuses me. So let's deal with that first.

 

1) 1♥ and 2♣ are fine.

2) 3♦ is an overbid. Surely 2♦ is still forcing. 3♦ is game force

3) After 3♦, which is gf. there is no need for 3♠ to be fourth suit forcing. North should either commit to notrump by showing bidding 3NT or show his heart support and see what happens by bidding 3♥. A three heart bid would establsih trumps or potentially could be false preference to give opener time to show the nature of his (inappropriate in this case) jumpshift.

4) That heart suit is never rebiddable without support, os over 3♠ with no spade stopper opener has no choice but to rebid 4♣

5) How in the world can responsder pass 4♥ on this auction (he has no way of knowing opener misbid with 3♦.

 

I guess if you are going to jump rebid 3♦, the auction should be...

1H-2C-3D-3H-4C-4NT-get to slam... 4NT becomes easy once opener cue-bid the club ACE. As far as serious 3NT here, after a two over-one, and a jump shift, you are already in a serious slam try. It is more important for opener to show the fitting club ace than to bid "serious" 3NT and hear his partner bid 4♣.

 

How should the auction go? I think 2♦ rebid is right with opener's hand, followed by a heart raise. How high a heart raise will depend upon partnership agreement. I am sort of fond of bidding out shape, so I propose...

 

1H-2C-2D-2S-3C-3H-4C-4D-4NT-whatever shows two keycard (out of six) plus the heart queen)-6H... where...

 

2S = now natural or fourth suit forcing depending upon style but forcing

3C = no spade stopper, hearts are not rebiddable, what else

3H = set trumps, this could be double trump agreement if opener now jumps to 4NT

4C = cue-bid

4D = last train, promises spade control

4NT = now we are talking, rkcb, two suit trump agreement sp 6 keycards

5NT = two key cards plus the higher suit queen

6H

 

 

To bid the grand slam if the diamond ace was subbed for the spade ace, try...

 

1H-2C-2H-2S-2NT-3H-3S-3N-4C-5D

 

2NT now shows a spade stopper

3H = set trumps, shows short diamonds

3S = cue bid

3NT = serious, give opener a chance to show club ace

4C = cue-bid

5D = exclusion blackwood (could have done this over 3NT too)

5H = three key cards, known 5-4 in reds and surely not singleton ♠A for 2NT

7H = I expect you to be Ax Axxxx xxxx Ax at worse, I could ask about club queen if i liked with 5♠ bid.

 

Ben

[Free]

I disagree with the 3♠ bid. You're in a GF auction, so just bid 3♥ setting trumps and start cuebidding...

[Walddk]

Correct bidding would be (sayc):

 

1H 2C

2D 3H (forcing.. with 10-11 bid 2H, with 12-14 bid 4H, so 3H shows 15+)

I am not an expert on Standard American, but I doubt that 3♥ on this auction shows 15+. I would interpret the bid as showing 10-12 with exactly 3 hearts, whereas 2♥ would show the same range with a doubleton.

 

With 13-15 you jump to 4♥, and with a stronger hand you go through 4th suit first before supporting hearts. Now 3♥ is a stronger slam invite than 4♥ would be (the principle of slow and fast arrival).

 

Example:

 

1♥ - 2♣

2♦ - 2♠

2NT - 3♥/4♥

 

3♥ is now 18+ and 4♥ 16-17 (mild slam invite).

 

I am willing to learn if SA experts can convince me that I am wrong.

 

Roland

[cherdano]

Fred has been saying more than once that opener shouldn't usually jump shift if his hand doesn't have a clear direction. While this has some issues after a 1-over-1 reponse (i.e. responder should stretch not to pass after 1♥-1♠/1NT-2♣ (and yes I know some would call this an additional benefit...)), it is even more right when 2♦ is forcing as here. (Which I am relieved to learn it is even in modern Acol, thanks Roland!)

I think 3♦ should be hand that doesn't care about playing in anything other than a red suit.

 

Arend

[Walddk]

Q1 - How would u bid it?

Steve

I think responder's hand qualifies for a mild slam invite with 3-card heart support (don't count too much for the diamond void after it has been bid by opener), so I suggest the following auction:

 

1♥ - 2♣ *)

2♦ - 2♠

3♣ - 4♥

5♣ - 6♥

pass

 

*) I believe in bidding your longer suit first if you are strong enough to force to game. With a different hand (no heart support) I can always bid spades later if the bidding goes:

 

1♥ - 2♣

2♥ - 2♠

 

As to Steve's example, I think it's safe to bid 6♥ over 5♣. Opener is apparently interested opposite a mild slam try, although he has no spade control, so he should have 3 aces.

 

Roland

[whereagles]

Correct bidding would be (sayc):

 

1H 2C

2D 3H (forcing.. with 10-11 bid 2H, with 12-14 bid 4H, so 3H shows 15+)

I am not an expert on Standard American, but I doubt that 3♥ on this auction shows 15+. I would interpret the bid as showing 10-12 with exactly 3 hearts, whereas 2♥ would show the same range with a doubleton.

Well, the point is with a doubleton and 10-12 you can bid 2NT. No need to bid 2H on that hand. But I understand this is probably a problem of schools: in Europe (where I live) this jump is strong. In the US people are apparently used to play it as invitational.

 

As for

 

1H 2C

3D

 

since 1H-2C-2D is FORCING (responder always has enough to rebid 2NT), there's no need to leap to 3D. Therefore the jump to 3D should show a very specific hand type: strong 55 or splinter in support of clubs, or whatever you agree with pard.

[Walddk]

Well, the point is with a doubleton and 10-12 you can bid 2NT. No need to bid 2H on that hand.

Sorry, that point is not valid. You can only bid 2NT with a doubleton heart if you also have a spade stopper. That has nothing to do with where on this planet you live.

 

As to your remark that a jump to 3♥ will be forcing in Europe, I must try to stop your delusion. That is definitely not the case in the European countries I have played in, and I have been around a bit. I just finished counting: 21 European nations I have been to for international tournaments. I have even played in most countries on several occasions.

 

Roland

[whereagles]

Well, the point is with a doubleton and 10-12 you can bid 2NT. No need to bid 2H on that hand.

Sorry, that point is not valid. You can only bid 2NT with a doubleton heart if you also have a spade stopper. That has nothing to do with where on this planet you live.

That point is absolutely valid if you live on a certain side of the planet.

 

Perhaps not in all of Europe, but at least where I live, a 3-level jump after 2/1 is slammish. Of course, it will only be so if the players involved actually read something about bidding. If they don't (90%+ of the people) then they'll take 3H as invitational, not because of technical reasons but because it's EASIER.

[Walddk]

if the players involved actually read something about bidding. If they don't (90%+ of the people) then they'll take 3H as invitational, not because of technical reasons but because it's EASIER.

So the country you live in accounts for 10% of Europe's population? That's interesting, since NO country does!

 

Let me go a wee bit further and claim that much less than 10% of tournament players in your country (wherever that is) play it like you do:

 

1♥ - 2♣

2♦ - 2NT

 

10-12 with or without a spade stopper according to you.

 

1♥ - 2♣

2♦ - 3♥

 

Game forcing, again according to your statement.

 

Finally, it would be nice to know your full name and which country you live in. Then I promise to get an expert from that country to tell the members what is standard there.

 

Roland

 

P.S. I now see that you are from Portugal. Let me ask one of our Portuguese expert vugraph commentators what he/she thinks.

[HeartA]

Q1 - How would u bid it?

Steve

I think responder's hand qualifies for a mild slam invite with 3-card heart support (don't count too much for the diamond void after it has been bid by opener), so I suggest the following auction:

 

1♥ - 2♣ *)

2♦ - 2♠

3♣ - 4♥

5♣ - 6♥

pass

 

*) I believe in bidding your longer suit first if you are strong enough to force to game. With a different hand (no heart support) I can always bid spades later if the bidding goes:

 

1♥ - 2♣

2♥ - 2♠

 

As to Steve's example, I think it's safe to bid 6♥ over 5♣. Opener is apparently interested opposite a mild slam try, although he has no spade control, so he should have 3 aces.

 

Roland

If N-S don't play 2/1, I would agree with Roland's auction. In my style:

1♥-2♣

2♦-2♥

3♣-3♠

4♦-6♥

[whereagles]

So the country you live in accounts for 10% of Europe's population? (...)

I now see that you are from Portugal. Let me ask one of our Portuguese expert vugraph commentators what he/she thinks.

Well, in my country, Spain and France (~25% or so of Europe), people usually play french standard. If you check a textbook on the french standard, you'll see 1M-2C-2D-3M is a game-forcing raise.

 

But then again, few people have have actually bothered to read books (expert included), so if you ask 10 of the Portuguese vugraph commentators what 3M is, 9 will say it's invitational. The 10th (probably canelas) will say it's forcing. You might find surprising experts don't read books, but I know those experts and I can tell you they don't read much.

 

Since this is a forum and people come here to learn, the important point of our discussion is that people realize there are two ways of playing

 

1M 2C

2D 3M

 

one as invitational, the other as forcing. Regardless of the technical merits of each method, the thing here is to agree with pard which you play.

[LH2650]

Correct bidding would be (sayc):

 

1H 2C

2D 3H (forcing.. with 10-11 bid 2H, with 12-14 bid 4H, so 3H shows 15+)

I am not an expert on Standard American, but I doubt that 3♥ on this auction shows 15+. I would interpret the bid as showing 10-12 with exactly 3 hearts, whereas 2♥ would show the same range with a doubleton.

 

Fortunately, there is an SAYC System Booklet that can be downloaded from the ACBL web site (under Tools and Supplies). It states that 3♥ is forcing.

 

I would rebid 2♥ in 2/1, and 3♥ in SAYC.

[Walddk]

Well, the point is with a doubleton and 10-12 you can bid 2NT. No need to bid 2H on that hand.

.

You still owe me a reply regarding 2NT. You bid 2NT with 10-12 and 2 hearts whether you have a spade stopper or not? And if yes, how does your partner know if he can take your NT suggestion seriously or not?

 

Finally, if opener happens to have the spade stopper you may not have, do you agree that the NT contract is likely to be wrong-sided?

 

I honestly don't think you can find many who would bid 2NT without a spade stopper. Consequently, you must bid 2♥ with only 2 and 10-12, and therefore 3♥ becomes invitational with 3.

 

This is all very logical for the big majority. Your method is not in my opinion, but as long as you are happy, all is fine. Just one final point:

 

Why it would be easier to remember that 3♥ is invitational rather than game forcing as stated by you in a previous post is beyond me. Please explain. I obviously need to be enlightened.

 

Roland

 

P.S. I have now sent an e-mail to 5 Portuguese experts and asked them what is considered standard in Portugal. I will come back when I have received their responses.

[cherdano]

Hi Roland,

 

with respect to the "official" German Standard ("Forum D", or "Forum D Plus"), you would be wrong. The jump to 3♥ is game forcing. The standard explicitly says that 2NT promises a stopper in the 4th suit, so my own conclusion is that a rebid of 2♥ can be based on 2 or 3 card support. (In the description of Forum D I found, it explicitly promises 3 cards. Doesn't seem to add up.)

 

Now whether that has anything to do with what would be considered standard among German experts, I don't know. I don't even know whether s.th. like a German standard exists, given the strongest German players play von Arnim/Auken-precision or polish club. Maybe you know better, actually :)

 

Arend

[whereagles]

...reply regarding 2NT. You bid 2NT with 10-12 and 2 hearts whether you have a spade stopper or not? And if yes, how does your partner know if he can take your NT suggestion seriously or not? (...) do you agree that the NT contract is likely to be wrong-sided?

Bid 2NT regardless of the spade stopper. The stopper will be there most of the time anyway. If pard is really worried about it, he can always bid 3S.

 

As for NT being wrong sided, responder's shape is almost always 3235, so I hardly think this is a problem. It would be more serious if you held doubleton or singleton spade, but that's not the usual case. In any case, it is far more important to get your shape/strenght across than to point the location of high cards.

 

I honestly don't think you can find many who would bid 2NT without a spade stopper. Consequently, you must bid 2♥ with only 2 and 10-12, and therefore 3♥ becomes invitational with 3. This is all very logical for the big majority. Your method is not in my opinion

Well, as I said, 3H as forcing is part of the french standard. French standard wasn't invented by casual players: it was written down by knowledgeable theoreticians who thought a lot about it and about this sequence in particular. It is this sort of strong support bids that allow it to overcome the difficulties of not playing 2/1 game-force.

 

Why it would be easier to remember that 3♥ is invitational rather than game forcing as stated by you in a previous post is beyond me. Please explain. I obviously need to be enlightened.

I didn't say that. I said the opposite: it's easier to remember 3H as invitational.

 

P.S. I have now sent an e-mail to 5 Portuguese experts and asked them what is considered standard in Portugal. I will come back when I have received their responses.

You're wasting your time, but ok :) Just because everybody will say "invitational" doesn't mean it's the way it must be played...