How do we avoid this?

[Ulrich]

I held

 

Kxx

Kxxx

Qx

KQJx

 

Pd opens 1C

I bid 1H

Pd bids 4H

 

I bid 5C as I have 14 points opposite pd's strong bid. Pd bids 5H and we are -1 as partner's trump suit is xxxx. He has his bid, but he is not sympathetic and we lose on the hand. He said he almost bid 6 as his hand was so good.

 

Pd has

AQ

xxxx

AKJ

Axxx

 

Can we avoid this?

[GijsH]

I think you did well to stop in 5H with so many points.

The symetric distribution and wasted values in diamonds cuase less tricks available. Apparently you lost 3 heart tricks, was that necessary? What were the intermediates in hearts? maybe you should duck 2 heart tricks, hoping for the ace to drop? with AQJ behind the K there is no hope of course.

If partner critisised you bidding, he is not a good bridge player.

[HeartA]

I held

 

Kxx

Kxxx

Qx

KQJx

 

Pd opens 1C

I bid 1H

Pd bids 4H

 

I bid 5C as I have 14 points opposite pd's strong bid. Pd bids 5H and we are -1 as partner's trump suit is xxxx. He has his bid, but he is not sympathetic and we lose on the hand. He said he almost bid 6 as his hand was so good.

 

Pd has

AQ

xxxx

AKJ

Axxx

 

Can we avoid this?

I know what you mean. You were referring to the other thread (if I get it right?). I might down-grade this hand and open 1NT, or bid 3♥ only if you open 1♣. This hand shouldn't be upgraded to 19 points after pd's 1♥ since the hcp were concentrated in short suits. It only qualifies for 3♥ bid, not 4♥.

[whereagles]

The point is

 

1m 1H

3H

 

should in principle show a 5-4 shape, since with a balanced 15-17 you'd have opened 1NT. So with 18-19 you're kind of endplayed into bidding 1m-1H-4H. There is not much you can do about it. (That is actually one of the reasons some people disliked opening on 12 points, which would drag down the NT scale by 1 point. With 13 points openings, 1m-1M-4M was 19-20, so a bit safer to bid.)

 

You can, of course, bid

 

1C 1H

2NT

 

on grounds that if pard passes this, 4H probably won't make anyway. But I doubt this style will ever be popular. Still on that tame hand with misplaced honors and xxxx hearts, a 2NT rebid comes to mind. Then it would go

 

1C 1H

2NT 3NT

4H

 

You now could move on, but you've been warned pard has a min, quite likely with bad hearts.

[flytoox]

The point is

 

1m 1H

3H

 

should in principle show a 5-4 shape, since with a balanced 15-17 you'd have opened 1NT.

Why cannt opener have 4441 or 5431 and some 15-17hcp?

[Walddk]

Pd has

AQ

xxxx

AKJ

Axxx

 

Can we avoid this?

If your partner does not overbid his hand, there is a good chance. That hand is nothing more than a 3♥ raise for me. 16-18, 16-17 if semi-balanced, 18 if balanced. Unbalanced (singleton diamond) not possible (no 3♦ bid = mini-splinter).

 

Roland

[TimG]

Pd has

AQ

xxxx

AKJ

Axxx

 

Can we avoid this?

Sure, opener should rebid 3♥.

[inquiry]

To avoid this, tell your partner not to overbid with 4♥. The jump to 4♥ shows roughly 19-21. Your partner has a yucky 18 with some minus features. So for point counters, 4♥ is an overbid.

 

How about Zar point counters? Let's put this ZAR POINT equivalents. ZAR claims you need 26 point to open and 5 points for each additional level. This hand has 18 hcp, 6 control points, and 10 distributional points. This is 34 points. Some people might remove a point for AQ doubleton. But even without that, this hand is only worth 8 points more than a minimum opening bid. Surely not enough for a leap to 4♥

 

How about loser count people. Minimum 1 level response shows 9 losers (or less), opener's hand has, depending on how you count them, somewhere between 7 and 6 losers. To figure out what you can make, add your losers (let's try 7 first) with partners losers (9 at a maximum) and subtract from 24. 24-16 = 8 tricks. So if your partner is dead minimum, you will make only 8 tricks. However, this devaluates the AQ doubleton and the AKJ tripleton. So consider these 1/2 loser each, for only 6 losers. Now, 24-15 = 9 tricks. This shows again that 3♥ is the right bid.

 

How does each of these count methods do if you bid only 3♥? The hcp people woould say 3♥ rebid shows 15-18, be genernous and average 17. 17+14 = 31, with 32 maximum. At best a mild slam try. and with out any aces and a lot of queens, probably not even that.

 

Zar? Even easier. East has 27 Zar fit points (add two for KQ fo clubs, subtract one for Qx of diamonds). 27+34 (max) = 61 max, not enoug for slam.

 

Loser count. Responder has seven losers. If opener had five losers, he would have jumped to game (his 5 losers plus your minimum of 9 would mean 24-14 = 10 tricks). Since opener promised 6 losers and you have five, 24 - (6+7) = 24 - 11 = 11 tricks max.

 

Each method shows that 11 tricks is probably best, and each method should include a downward estimate for weak hearts... Especially opener's hand evaluation.

 

Ben

[Free]

4♥ is a poor bid, 3♥ is much better. If you pass with a 14-pointer after this bidding, you'd be a poor player. It's a clear hand to continue the bidding.

[EricK]

Personally I don't think opener should be raising ♥ at all!

 

1♣ 1♥

2NT looks like the correct start.

 

If partner raises to 3NT or 4NT I would pass rather than correct to ♥. If partner bids another suit I will show my ♥ support.

 

So much can go wrong in a trump contract when your trumps are weak.

 

Eric

[TimG]

Personally I don't think opener should be raising ♥ at all!

 

1♣ 1♥

2NT looks like the correct start.

I think you are correct. Though I didn't want to be the first to go out on that limb.

[Ulrich]

Well, pd correctly pointed out that even if he had the "magic" hand

 

Kxx

Kxxx

Qx

KQJx

 

Ax

Axxx

AKx

Axxx

 

With 9 prime controls there are only 11 top tricks and 12 ONLY if H break 3-2.

 

He also pointed out that there are many hands on which a 4 bid is quite normal, as on the hand he had for exampleand on which he won't hold that magic hand. On many of these the 5 level will be in danger. I have come around to his way of thinking.

 

He thinks a 3H bid on that hand is masterminding after the auction, particularly at IMPs, but he can live with a gf 2NT.

[luke warm]

i also think i'd have bid 2nt over 1h, but if we're honest about it i think then we'd end up in 6nt... 14 hcp vs. a balanced 18, 19 ... even if responder bid 4nt over 2nt, i expect this opener might jump to 6nt (he did jump to 4h after all)

[mike777]

Jimmy makes a great point most missed.

 

You need to treat this as a 17 hcp ..NT hand.

[TimG]

Well, pd correctly pointed out that even if he had the "magic" hand

 

Kxx

Kxxx

Qx

KQJx

 

Ax

Axxx

AKx

Axxx

 

With 9 prime controls there are only 11 tricks in NT and 12 in H ONLY if H break 3-2.

12 tricks are available in NT, if hearts break 32. 6♣ looks even better, but who cares about minor suits?

[Free]

Well, pd correctly pointed out that even if he had the "magic" hand

 

Kxx

Kxxx

Qx

KQJx

 

Ax

Axxx

AKx

Axxx

 

With 9 prime controls there are only 11 tricks in NT and 12 in H ONLY if H break 3-2.

12 tricks are available in NT, if hearts break 32. 6♣ looks even better, but who cares about minor suits?

I do! When you have slams, minor suits are important! For simple games, I agree, minor suits usually aren't worth much. But if you go higher...

[pclayton]

There seems to be a recurring theme in some of the "problem" auctions posted on BBF.

 

Many of them start with a strong 2N. Most of you know my feelings about THAT.

 

Ben has picked up on 2 auctions - 1) 1 minor - 1 major - 3 minor and a splinter after a 2/1 call. Both of these auctions use up an inordinate amount of space. Ben has sensible treatments for both of these.

 

I will label the theme the "anti-useful space principle". It is sound bidding theory for the higher a jump in a non-competitive auction, the more specific meaning the bid.

 

Which leads us to the dreaded: 1 minor - 1 major - 4 major. What should this mean? A few sensible treatments come to mind (1♣ - 1♥). .

 

1) A semi - balanced 18-19 with a defined trump quality (say 2 of the top 3 losers)and lacking certain outside controls. xx, AKxx, Axx, AQJx (this makes sense);

 

2) A 4-5 loser 5-6 hand. Something like: x, AKxxx, x, KQxxxx (makes sense too);

 

3. Exactly a 5 loser hand and a picture jump: xx, AKxx, xx, AKQxx (nice treatment, but rates to come up rarely).

 

The posters should discuss this.

[whereagles]

Hum.. 1m-1M-4M is the usual way to bid a 18-19 balanced hand with support. But then people realized this style is somewhat unsound for various reasons. Not much because you can go down on 4M, but because it eats up space needed for slam probing. Therefore 1m-1M-4M should be reserved for hands with a very, very definite hand pattern. Which pattern specifically is something you agree with pard.

[Gerardo]

Why not 3♥ with 18-19 bal with support? (assuming you open 1NT with 5M332)

[inquiry]

There seems to be a recurring theme in some of the "problem" auctions posted on BBF.

 

Many of them start with a strong 2N. Most of you know my feelings about THAT.

 

Ben has picked up on 2 auctions - 1) 1 minor - 1 major - 3 minor and a splinter after a 2/1 call. Both of these auctions use up an inordinate amount of space. Ben has sensible treatments for both of these.

 

I will label the theme the "anti-useful space principle". It is sound bidding theory for the higher a jump in a non-competitive auction, the more specific meaning the bid.

QUOTE]

Phil is exactly right. The culprit here is the 4M rebid. Not everyone will like what I play, let me share it with you. I play many different raise to raise in non-competitive auctions, all focused around the use of a rather poorly defined but strong jump to 2NT raise. It can be less well defined, as you save two levels of bidding to better define your hand type.

 

After 1m-1M, my direct major raises are all weaker than normal (well 1m-1M-2M has lower maximum, same minimum).

 

1m-1M-?

• 2M = maybe 3 card support, up to 14 hcp if balanced
  
• 3M = four card support, 15-16 value points (counting distribution)
  
• 2NT = 4 card raise, stronger than immediate 3M, unlimited in theory (limited by the one bid)
  
• 4M = distrubutional rather than hcp game bid. Opener shows five/six of first suit but broken quality, four/five of second suit, unsuited for splinter, not strong enough for 2NT then game bid (not control rich enough)
  
• 4m = if original minor, solid suit plus four card support
  
• 3 other major/4 other mnor = splinter
  
• 4H over 1S = void splinter
  
• 4S over 1H = rare, exclusion blackwood
  
• 3 original minor, great six card minor, three card support not forcing
  
• all other three card supports (too good for 2M, not suitable for 3m) go through forcing new suit by opener then raise
  

On this hand, the opener would either treat his hand as balanced, and bid a new suit then NT, treat it as three card support, in which case he would bid new suit then raise hearts (showing hand too good for 1NT opener with three card support), or bid 2NT (it is too strong for immediate 3H). North would show accept game, 4 hearts, no slam interest and opener with weak hearts would agree.

 

I would treat this at the table as a balanced 17-19 so my auction would be...

 

1C-1H

2D-2S

2NT-4NT

Pass

 

2D = one round force, maybe true reverse, or blanced 17-19, or great one suiter with clubs (remember my 3C jump rebid shows 3 card heart support).

2S = forcing, shows values

2NT = 17-19 balanced (opener could bid 3H to show 3 card support, 17-19 hcp)

4NT = quantatative, with poor hearts, opener passes. Responder could also bid forcing 3C, and hear delayed heart support, and still end up in 4nt.

 

If I chose to use the 2NT raise here (willing to stop in 3H), the bidding would be...

 

1C-1H

2N-3D

3H-3N

4C-4D

4H-Pass

 

where 3D = accept all game tries, still neutral on slam ambition,

3H = do you ahve any short suit, I have slam ambition

3N = no short suit. but extras for my 3D bid since I didn't signoff in 4H

4C = cue bid

4D = Last train, I still ahve extra but nothing to get excited about

4H = passable

Pass = ok.

 

4H is biddable as opener, becasue if partner is looking at AKXX, AQJx or KQJx of hearts, and you have made two slam tries opposite a no slam interest reply, he will bid again.

 

Ben