ATB -990

[ahydra]

Matchpoints, opps are vulnerable and not particularly good

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sq6hkq8daq95ck532&n=sahat97653d762c86&d=w&v=e&b=16&a=2s(weak)3h3sd(thrump-ish)p4hpp4sppdppp]266|200[/hv]

 

South accepts the blame for -990 rather than -790 (misdefence), but even -790 is still a complete bottom with both 4S and 5H making. How should the bidding have gone differently?

 

Thanks,

 

ahydra

[TylerE]

I don't get why you want to defend on this hand. You should expect to cash zero heart tricks on this auction.

[Hanoi5]

Why did North enter the bidding with 3♥?

[ArtK78]

I have no clue why North bid 3♥ over 2♠, but, having done so, South should NEVER want to defend. Looking at the South hand, I would expect that 4♠ would make.

[Phil]

So South forgot to tell North about KQx of trump and made and doubled 4S. I guess I understand the final pass was because of two defensive tricks.

 

Even looking at both hands it seems plausible we set 4S and we can't make 5H.

 

I'm fine with 3H and prefer 4H then x with S.

[WesleyC]

With a singleton spade, a 7c suit and 2 aces, I haven't got a problem with 3H by north (although I understand it might not be everyone's cup of tea).

 

The first double by south is bizarre holding KQx of hearts. Why not raise to 4H in the known 9/10c fit?

 

Once partner rebids 4H over your first double and you still have undisclosed KQx support, i'd be more likely to make a slam try in hearts than try and defend 4S.

[aguahombre]

South and West would be an interesting partnership.

[gszes]

what is thrumpish???????????? I am sooooooooooooooooooooooo out of touch

[ahydra]

what is thrumpish???????????? I am sooooooooooooooooooooooo out of touch

 

 

A "thrump double" is a double looking for 3NT (three + notrump = thrump). Primarily it asks for a stop.

 

ahydra

[aguahombre]

A "thrump double" is a double looking for 3NT (three + notrump = thrump). Primarily it asks for a stop.

 

ahydra

So in this case, the Double was a Farts Double, looking for four + he arts primarily asking Partner if he had overcalled 3♥ on a four-card heart suit.

[rmnka447]

Both get a share of the blame.

 

North's 3 ♥ bid is more than a bit pushy. Like others, I'd probably pass it, but I can understand that North may feel that if 3 ♥ is not bid now that the suit might be lost. Certainly over something like East bidding 3 ♠ - P -P, North isn't going to back in at 4 ♥.

 

South has ♥ KQx and elects to double rather than support which is the major error. In my mind, it's just another example of why you must support with support. Yes, South would like to be able to say to North, I have a great hand opposite your overcall. But preempts do work, so the first priority should be to let partner know that at least game in ♥s should be the minimum playing field they should be on. South might argue that with all the values in his hand slam might be in view. But I think a couple considerations should be made. After the weak two, North (as here) might push a little to make an overcall and game might be a great spot. Also, with the flattish hand that South holds, slam would need to be a power slam based on overall HC values whenever partner holds some run of the mill semi-balanced distribution. Since hasn't started to make a "strong" overcall, that seems less likely. If North holds some distributional hand where slam makes and can't bid over South's game raise, c'est la vie.

 

North would have a tougher time following South's double of 4 ♠ after South's initial double of 3 ♠ than if South had supported ♥. After ♥s are supported, 5 ♥ should be an easy call. Yet even without the raise, I think North should bid on to 5 ♥. A prime consideration in taking the push is whether some distributional feature is held which offsets possible opponents tricks. Here the stiff ♠ A is just such a feature and huge. So, going on seems right.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

I dont like the first double, 4H is certainly better.

Given the bidding presented, we will be faced with a similar seq.,

since West will again bid 4S, South will double.

They are red, we play MP, why should North remove the double holding

the Ace of trumps? No way, does he really want to explain 5H-? vs.

4S-1?

 

As it went -790 it is, next board.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[ggwhiz]

I just can't bid 3♥ in my partnership but I can bid 4♥ (or pass). North South are clearly not on the same page as to what a 3♥ bid looks like when south is going for blood against 3♠, still a serious error with that support.

 

ATB? Could be some partnership history on similar auctions, ie. maybe south used to support to a bunch of no play contracts or if south is just the mad doubler (my partner has a mild case of that) north can't bid 3♥ here either.

 

Another possibility is that south doubled because the vul opponents were known to be "not particularly good". Very poor strategy partnership wise even if it works.

[PhilKing]

The evidence suggests that North is possibly a bridge player, but South is a convention-obsessed bean counter.

[ahydra]

I suppose this is where I hide behind a door and admit I was South :)

 

Following an evening of mediocre results I was tempted to go for the "instant top" of +500. Hence the first double - if partner has a hand suitable for leaving it in, that's awesome, otherwise he takes it out and I correct to 4H. But that is playing solitaire and/or a fruit machine; 4H is indeed a far better choice. Take the cold 420 and let partner know what's going on.

 

Like some of you, I'm not sure about partner's 3H - bidding in direct seat over a weak two should be constructive (North hand looks more like a pre-empt), and 2S isn't likely to get passed out. Partner doesn't overcall with 4-card suits :), but does do so with flat 18-counts, defensive 11s and now apparently shapely 8s as well, so I often have little idea what the layout is.

 

Interesting there's only one vote for 5H after (2S)-3H-(3S)-4H; (4S)-p-(p)-X; (p). I think I have to agree with P_Marlowe on that though, you have 1 certain + 1 likely defensive trick, and 5H seems a long way off yet. As it happens, West had ♠KJ10xxxx ♥xxx ♦K ♣9x and East ♠xxx ♥- ♦J10xxx ♣AQJ10x so 5H is only there because of the extremely fortunate lie in diamonds. In a large field I would expect a number of 790s on the traveller.

 

ahydra

[ArtK78]

Deleted.

[PhilKing]

I suppose this is where I hide behind a door and admit I was South :)

 

ahydra

 

If I had a pound for every hand where I bid like a convention obsessed bean-counter I would be a much richer man. The reality is that all bridge players are guilty of bidding in a robotic manner from time to time, but each individual instance is just that - it does not define us. :)

 

I don't really get the criticisms of the overcall. It has good playing strength and controls, and if the issue is whether to try and outbid them in hearts, now is a good time to get the ball rolling. What can happen that is that bad? I'm not saying it can never go wrong - maybe partner will drive slam with some huge misfitting hand, but in the vast majority of cases it will work fine.

 

If partner bids 3NT we can bid 4H and if partner has a fit, we have a great hand. The downside of passing is that we often give ourselves a blind guess on the next round. Say it goes 4♠PP, now we really want to back in with 5♥. But how can it be right to gamble at the five level but not bid at the three level? The Italians make overcalls on hands like this and worse as matter of routine (I have shown a couple in other threads), particularly at this vulnerability. As I have said before, just overcall and let nature take it's course.

 

And yes, if partner raises to 4♥ and then doubles I am bidding 5♥ for sure - the auction screams that opener has a void heart. They are at red!

[ggwhiz]

The downside of passing is that we often give ourselves a blind guess on the next round.

 

Or worse. If partner balances at whatever level how can we ever convince them that we have this hand without getting too high?

 

I'm a 4♥ bidder. Doesn't always work but it's an acceptable risk with no blame attached in my partnership when it doesn't work out. When the 3♥ bid can include the kitchen sink and whatever strength partner has rates to be behind a lot of their values the rest of the auction is a crapshoot ie. if south had fewer hearts with either a real penalty double or just enough to make game.

 

Neither one of us is Italian.