sm101 Posted January 20, 2015 Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 I do not understand why does the GIB passes my 1 NT opening bid when he has 8 points. I have missed many games when he does that. If I have 17 points or 16 points with some 9's and 10's the 3 NT can be made easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted January 20, 2015 Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 First you ask why GIB passes a strong 1NT opening holding an 8 count. That is easy. It is because the odds are that with 8 points (especially a balanced hand with 8 points) facing a 15-17 HCP 1NT opening that you will make game far less than 50% of the time and, by moving forward, you will turn a plus score into a minus score a good portion of the time. Most players would be better off passing balanced 8 counts facing a 15-17 HCP 1NT opening. Now, if you have one or two major suits, that might be different, depending on whether you have a suit oriented 8 count (more aces and kings, less queens and jacks - especially in short suits). Then you comment about 9's and 10's. I am reasonably sure that GIB does not pass 9 counts, and it certainly does not pass 10 counts. So I don't understand the second part of your question. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iandayre Posted January 20, 2015 Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 I think he is talking about the 9 and 10 spot cards. That said, I disagree. I pass flat 8 HCP points routinely opposite a 15-17 NT, even Vul at IMP's. I got lots of extra plus scores to make up for the occasional missed game. But yes, with some great spot cards I may upgrade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted January 20, 2015 Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 I think he is talking about the 9 and 10 spot cards. That said, I disagree. I pass flat 8 HCP points routinely opposite a 15-17 NT, even Vul at IMP's. I got lots of extra plus scores to make up for the occasional missed game. But yes, with some great spot cards I may upgrade.Good point about 9's and 10's being spot cards. So, what is being said is that with 8 HCP and some 9's and 10's, a hand might be worth an invite. I don't think anyone would argue that. But what you are doing is judging that your 8 HCP hand is worth more than most 8 HCP hands. If so, feel free to invite. Apparently, GIB is programmed not to invite on 8 HCP hands. I don't know if GIB counts anything for additional 9's and 10's. I am always quite wary when GIB invites anything. It is far too aggressive in inviting slams. As for games, I find that its invites are OK, but its acceptances of invites are too aggressive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bbradley62 Posted January 20, 2015 Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 I do not understand why does the GIB passes my 1 NT opening bid when he has 8 points. I have missed many games when he does that. If I have 17 points or 16 points with some 9's and 10's the 3 NT can be made easily.So, what is being said is that with 8 HCP and some 9's and 10's, a hand might be worth an invite. I don't think anyone would argue that. But what you are doing is judging that your 8 HCP hand is worth more than most 8 HCP hands. If so, feel free to invite. Apparently, GIB is programmed not to invite on 8 HCP hands. I don't know if GIB counts anything for additional 9's and 10's.You continue to misread OP's comment about spot cards; he's talking about spot cards in opener's hand, not in responder's hand, making opener a "good 17" or a "good 16". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bbradley62 Posted January 20, 2015 Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 I went looking for a hand where OP opened 1N and it went "all pass". So far, only found this one, which might make for an interesting poll question (matchpoints): [hv=bbo=y&lin=pn|sm101,~~M40489,~~M40487,~~M40488|st%7C%7Cmd%7C2S569QH48QAD9AC47A%2CS78KAH369JD7JC58Q%2CS24TH27TKD268TKC3%2C%7Crh%7C%7Cah%7CBoard%204%7Csv%7Cb%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C1N%7Can%7Cnotrump%20opener.%20Could%20have%205M.%20--%202-5%20%21C%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cpc%7C]360|270[/hv] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
42krunner Posted January 20, 2015 Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 Maybe because I am opening 1NT with a bad 14 too often with him and he got tired of me. :lol: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahydra Posted January 20, 2015 Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 Bbradley62, I don't see any interest in that hand at all. North has only a 6-count and the most obvious pass. ahydra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bbradley62 Posted January 20, 2015 Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 IMPs[hv=bbo=y&lin=pn|sm101,~~M44050,~~M44048,~~M44049|st%7C%7Cmd%7C3S4QKH79TKAD7TQCTK%2CS23567AH2D58JC46Q%2CS8JH358QD69AC257J%2C%7Crh%7C%7Cah%7CBoard%205%7Csv%7Cn%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C1N%7Can%7Cnotrump%20opener.%20Could%20have%205M.%20--%202-5%20%21C%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cpc%7CS5%7Cpc%7CSJ%7Cpc%7CS9%7Cpc%7CS4%7Cpc%7CD6%7Cpc%7CDK%7Cpc%7CD7%7Cpc%7CD8%7Cpc%7CST%7Cpc%7CSQ%7Cpc%7CSA%7Cpc%7CS8%7Cpc%7CS7%7Cpc%7CC2%7Cpc%7CD2%7Cpc%7CSK%7Cpc%7CH7%7Cpc%7CH2%7Cpc%7CHQ%7Cpc%7CH4%7Cpc%7CH8%7Cpc%7CH6%7Cpc%7CHA%7Cpc%7CS2%7Cpc%7CHK%7Cpc%7CS6%7Cpc%7CH3%7Cpc%7CHJ%7Cpc%7CHT%7Cpc%7CC4%7Cpc%7CH5%7Cpc%7CC9%7Cpc%7CH9%7Cpc%7CD5%7Cpc%7CC5%7Cpc%7CC3%7Cpc%7CDQ%7Cpc%7CDJ%7Cpc%7CD9%7Cpc%7CD3%7Cpc%7CDT%7Cpc%7CC6%7Cpc%7CDA%7Cpc%7CD4%7Cpc%7CCJ%7Cpc%7CC8%7Cpc%7CCK%7Cpc%7CCQ%7Cpc%7CCT%7Cpc%7CS3%7Cpc%7CC7%7Cpc%7CCA%7C]360|270[/hv]GIB's system notes clearly state that hands with 17HCP (never mind three 10s) and a 5card major are too strong to open 1NT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bbradley62 Posted January 20, 2015 Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 Bbradley62, I don't see any interest in that hand at all. North has only a 6-count and the most obvious pass. ahydraI might be bidding Stayman... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bbradley62 Posted January 20, 2015 Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 IMPs [hv=bbo=y&lin=pn|sm101,~~M1192,~~M1190,~~M1191|st%7C%7Cmd%7C4S359KHTQAD27TACTK%2CS7TH23689JD36C57A%2CS6JH5KD59JQC2689J%2C%7Crh%7C%7Cah%7CBoard%206%7Csv%7Ce%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C1N%7Can%7Cnotrump%20opener.%20Could%20have%205M.%20--%202-5%20%21C%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cpc%7CH6%7Cpc%7CH5%7Cpc%7CH7%7Cpc%7CHT%7Cpc%7CCK%7Cpc%7CCA%7Cpc%7CC2%7Cpc%7CC3%7Cpc%7CH3%7Cpc%7CHK%7Cpc%7CH4%7Cpc%7CHQ%7Cpc%7CCJ%7Cpc%7CCQ%7Cpc%7CCT%7Cpc%7CC7%7Cpc%7CSA%7Cpc%7CS3%7Cpc%7CS7%7Cpc%7CS6%7Cpc%7CSQ%7Cpc%7CSK%7Cpc%7CST%7Cpc%7CSJ%7Cpc%7CD2%7Cpc%7CD6%7Cpc%7CDJ%7Cpc%7CDK%7Cpc%7CS4%7Cpc%7CS9%7Cpc%7CC5%7Cpc%7CD5%7Cpc%7CD7%7Cpc%7CD3%7Cpc%7CDQ%7Cpc%7CD8%7Cpc%7CC9%7Cpc%7CC4%7Cpc%7CS5%7Cpc%7CHJ%7Cpc%7CC8%7Cpc%7CS8%7Cpc%7CDT%7Cpc%7CH2%7Cpc%7CD9%7Cpc%7CD4%7Cpc%7CDA%7Cpc%7CH8%7Cpc%7CHA%7Cpc%7CH9%7Cpc%7CC6%7Cpc%7CS2%7C]360|270[/hv] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bbradley62 Posted January 20, 2015 Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 Passing worked out well on this one (IMPs): [hv=bbo=y&lin=pn|sm101,~~M1192,~~M1190,~~M1191|st%7C%7Cmd%7C1STAH457D245ACTJQA%2CS2457JH26TJQD7KC4%2CS368KH8KD9TQC2368%2C%7Crh%7C%7Cah%7CBoard%203%7Csv%7Ce%7Cmb%7C1N%7Can%7Cnotrump%20opener.%20Could%20have%205M.%20--%202-5%20%21C%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cpc%7CHQ%7Cpc%7CHK%7Cpc%7CHA%7Cpc%7CH4%7Cpc%7CH9%7Cpc%7CH5%7Cpc%7CH6%7Cpc%7CH8%7Cpc%7CH3%7Cpc%7CH7%7Cpc%7CHT%7Cpc%7CS3%7Cpc%7CHJ%7Cpc%7CS6%7Cpc%7CD8%7Cpc%7CD2%7Cpc%7CH2%7Cpc%7CD9%7Cpc%7CC7%7Cpc%7CD4%7Cpc%7CS7%7Cpc%7CSK%7Cpc%7CS9%7Cpc%7CST%7Cpc%7CC8%7Cpc%7CC5%7Cpc%7CCT%7Cpc%7CC4%7Cpc%7CD5%7Cpc%7CDK%7Cpc%7CDT%7Cpc%7CD6%7Cpc%7CD7%7Cpc%7CDQ%7Cpc%7CDJ%7Cpc%7CDA%7Cpc%7CCA%7Cpc%7CS5%7Cpc%7CC2%7Cpc%7CC9%7Cpc%7CCQ%7Cpc%7CS4%7Cpc%7CC3%7Cpc%7CCK%7Cpc%7CD3%7Cpc%7CCJ%7Cpc%7CS2%7Cpc%7CC6%7Cpc%7CSQ%7Cpc%7CSA%7Cpc%7CSJ%7Cpc%7CS8%7C]360|270[/hv] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iandayre Posted January 21, 2015 Report Share Posted January 21, 2015 I went looking for a hand where OP opened 1N and it went "all pass". So far, only found this one, which might make for an interesting poll question (matchpoints): [hv=bbo=y&lin=pn|sm101,~~M40489,~~M40487,~~M40488|st%7C%7Cmd%7C2S569QH48QAD9AC47A%2CS78KAH369JD7JC58Q%2CS24TH27TKD268TKC3%2C%7Crh%7C%7Cah%7CBoard%204%7Csv%7Cb%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C1N%7Can%7Cnotrump%20opener.%20Could%20have%205M.%20--%202-5%20%21C%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cpc%7C]360|270[/hv] I would never pass this hand, I would bid Stayman and pass any rebid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masonbarge Posted January 21, 2015 Report Share Posted January 21, 2015 I would never pass this hand, I would bid Stayman and pass any rebid. With that nice hand? You'll end up playing in a weak 4-3 fit going down, where 1NT makes. That hand is way too good for desperation measures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1eyedjack Posted January 21, 2015 Report Share Posted January 21, 2015 With that nice hand? You'll end up playing in a weak 4-3 fit going down, where 1NT makes. That hand is way too good for desperation measures.pessimist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sm101 Posted January 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2015 First you ask why GIB passes a strong 1NT opening holding an 8 count. That is easy. It is because the odds are that with 8 points (especially a balanced hand with 8 points) facing a 15-17 HCP 1NT opening that you will make game far less than 50% of the time and, by moving forward, you will turn a plus score into a minus score a good portion of the time. Most players would be better off passing balanced 8 counts facing a 15-17 HCP 1NT opening. Now, if you have one or two major suits, that might be different, depending on whether you have a suit oriented 8 count (more aces and kings, less queens and jacks - especially in short suits). Then you comment about 9's and 10's. I am reasonably sure that GIB does not pass 9 counts, and it certainly does not pass 10 counts. So I don't understand the second part of your question. Thank you for your reply. If you are correct, then the ACBL standard teaching manual ("Bidding in the 21st Century", written by Audrey Grant in 1986 and updated in 2006) must be wrong. The ACBL manual recommends making an invitational bid when you have 8 or 9 points and your partner opens with a strong 1 NT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1eyedjack Posted January 21, 2015 Report Share Posted January 21, 2015 I think to some extent it may depend on your policy on just how strong you need to be as opener to accept a 2NT game invitational raise (whether via Stayman or however). If your policy is "Pass unless max", then inviting on 8 has more appeal than if your policy is "accept unless min". There are policies between those extremes, of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted January 21, 2015 Report Share Posted January 21, 2015 Thank you for your reply. If you are correct, then the ACBL standard teaching manual ("Bidding in the 21st Century", written by Audrey Grant in 1986 and updated in 2006) must be wrong. The ACBL manual recommends making an invitational bid when you have 8 or 9 points and your partner opens with a strong 1 NT.What is the range of the 1NT opening in that book? Is it 16-18? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sm101 Posted January 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2015 I think to some extent it may depend on your policy on just how strong you need to be as opener to accept a 2NT game invitational raise (whether via Stayman or however). If your policy is "Pass unless max", then inviting on 8 has more appeal than if your policy is "accept unless min". There are policies between those extremes, of course. Thank you for your reply. I guess the GIB is a bossy player. It wants to make the final decision. One other example is that the GIB often changes my 3 NT bid to 4 of the majors of 5 of the minors. Often I am forced to play 4 spades or 4 heart with only 7 trumps and the result is terrible. The GIB knows we only have 7 trumps because I did not open the major and he has only 3 trump cards. My human partners almost never change my 3 NT bid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Tu Posted January 21, 2015 Report Share Posted January 21, 2015 Thank you for your reply. If you are correct, then the ACBL standard teaching manual ("Bidding in the 21st Century", written by Audrey Grant in 1986 and updated in 2006) must be wrong. The ACBL manual recommends making an invitational bid when you have 8 or 9 points and your partner opens with a strong 1 NT. Yeah be sure if it is using 16-18 or 15-17 range. A lot of beginner books are saying stayman/invite with 8 but based on old style 16-18, with 15-17 flat 8 is too aggressive. Yes partner will accept & game will make sometimes, but if you balance those out with all the times you go down in 3nt, and down in 2nt, it's a losing proposition to invite game. Complaining about pulling 3nt to 4M on Moysian 4-3 fits is a much more common and valid complaint about the GIBs than worrying about them passing 1nt on 8 which is totally defensible. If you run into the 4-3M fits, just post the hand here, and hopefully georgi or someone else at BBO will eventually get around to fixing the auction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sm101 Posted January 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 What is the range of the 1NT opening in that book? Is it 16-18? Thank you for your reply. In the ACBL manual the 1 NT opening is stated as 15-17 points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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