WTP: Open or not?

[diana_eva]

MPs. 1st seat, white vs red. Just vote in the poll pls, curious abt how close it is based simply on each person's taste. Indy, not playing with a regular partner.

 

 

[hv=pc=n&s=SAT86HJ62DAQTCJ76]133|100[/hv]

[eagles123]

yes I would open and I really don't see this as being very close at all.

[hrothgar]

MPs. 1st seat, white vs red. Just vote in the poll pls, curious abt how close it is based simply on each person's taste. Indy, not playing with a regular partner.

 

 

[hv=pc=n&s=SAT86HJ62DAQTCJ76]133|100[/hv]

 

Its a 12 count with two bullets. I think its a reasonable opener

[Bbradley62]

Just vote in the poll pls...

You didn't really expect people to vote without commenting, did you? I wonder if you could have locked the thread without locking the poll ;)

[diana_eva]

You didn't really expect people to vote without commenting, did you? I wonder if you could have locked the thread without locking the poll ;)

 

Ah I didn't mean to shut out comments. Ofc I'm interested in comments too, but mainly I wanted to encourage anyone to vote even without leaving a comment.

[manudude03]

Ask me in 40 years and I might consider passing. Until then, I open.

[PhantomSac]

It's not at all close. Just open all 12 counts you won't be very far off. If you are thinking of passing with 12 including 2.5 quick tricks and 2 tens you are way off. You are even white at MP.

[whereagles]

what is "other"?... an inadmissible dbl or rdbl? http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif

[mikeh]

The more interesting questions, which are more systemic than judgement, are what to open and what to rebid, assuming partner bids 1red.

 

For me, system, when not opening 1N, which I would in all my regular partnerships, requires 1C and then 1N.

 

Passing with no rebid problem and 12 hcp, including 2 Aces, makes little sense to me. Heck, we even own the spade suit, tho I won't be showing it unless partner does.

[diana_eva]

what is "other"?... an inadmissible dbl or rdbl? http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif

 

Other is for fun loving people :P

[manudude03]

what is "other"?... an inadmissible dbl or rdbl? http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif

 

I can only guess that "other" is "depends on what day of the week it is".

[diana_eva]

OK this was a poll for my own fun, sorry. I also thought it was a WTP opener, which I did at the table. The hand was played today in BBF Indy where 3 out of 5 tables opened, 2 passed, and out of those 3 who opened I was the only one in 2♠+1 for a cold zero. Here's what happened at the other tables:

 

 

1 1NxN-3 800 100.00%

2 1NN-3 300 75.00%

3 1NN-2 200 50.00%

4 2♠W+2 170 25.00%

5 2♠W+1 140 0.00% <------ diana_eva's score

 

Full hand was:

 

[hv=pc=n&s=http://www.bridgebase.com/tools/handviewer.html?bbo=y&lin=pn|South,West,North,East|st%7C%7Cmd%7C2S24H359KD28C2589T%2CS68TAH26JDTQAC67J%2CS7JKH4QAD37JC34QK%2C%7Crh%7C%7Cah%7CBoard%2012%7Csv%7Cn%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C1N%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cpc%7CD5%7Cpc%7CD2%7Cpc%7CDA%7Cpc%7CD3%7Cpc%7CDQ%7Cpc%7CD7%7Cpc%7CD4%7Cpc%7CD8%7Cpc%7CDT%7Cpc%7CDJ%7Cpc%7CDK%7Cpc%7CS2%7Cpc%7CD9%7Cpc%7CH3%7Cpc%7CS8%7Cpc%7CS7%7Cpc%7CD6%7Cpc%7CC2%7Cpc%7CS6%7Cpc%7CC3%7Cpc%7CS3%7Cpc%7CS4%7Cpc%7CSA%7Cpc%7CSJ%7Cpc%7CST%7Cpc%7CSK%7Cpc%7CS5%7Cpc%7CH5%7Cpc%7CH4%7Cpc%7CH7%7Cpc%7CHK%7Cpc%7CH2%7Cpc%7CH9%7Cpc%7CH6%7Cpc%7CHA%7Cpc%7CH8%7Cpc%7CHQ%7Cpc%7CHT%7Cpc%7CC5%7Cpc%7CHJ%7Cpc%7CCK%7Cpc%7CCA%7Cpc%7CC8%7Cpc%7CC6%7Cpc%7CSQ%7Cpc%7CCT%7Cpc%7CC7%7Cpc%7CC4%7Cpc%7CS9%7Cpc%7CC9%7Cpc%7CCJ%7Cpc%7CCQ%7C]399|300[/hv]

[Bbradley62]

Your action put you in a good position, but your LHO's odd action turned it around. At all of the other tables, North bid 1N to either open or overcall 1♣. When it was an overcall, East was able to double. At your table, North doubled your 1♣, and your side ended up buying the contract instead of hurting North.

 

[hv=bbo=y&lin=pn|wackojack,manudude03,gemeouhere,hrothgar|st%7C%7Cmd%7C2S24H359KD28C2589T%2CS68TAH26JDTQAC67J%2CS7JKH4QAD37JC34QK%2C%7Crh%7C%7Cah%7CBoard%2012%7Csv%7Cn%7Cmb%7C1C%7Cmb%7C1N%7Cmb%7Cd%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cpc%7CD5%7Cpc%7CD2%7Cpc%7CDA%7Cpc%7CD3%7Cpc%7CDQ%7Cpc%7CD7%7Cpc%7CD4%7Cpc%7CD8%7Cpc%7CDT%7Cpc%7CDJ%7Cpc%7CDK%7Cpc%7CS4%7Cpc%7CD9%7Cpc%7CS2%7Cpc%7CH6%7Cpc%7CC3%7Cpc%7CD6%7Cpc%7CH3%7Cpc%7CH2%7Cpc%7CH4%7Cpc%7CH7%7Cpc%7CH9%7Cpc%7CHJ%7Cpc%7CHQ%7Cpc%7CHA%7Cpc%7CH8%7Cpc%7CH5%7Cpc%7CS6%7Cpc%7CCQ%7Cpc%7CCA%7Cpc%7CC2%7Cpc%7CC6%7Cpc%7CS3%7Cpc%7CC5%7Cpc%7CSA%7Cpc%7CS7%7Cpc%7CST%7Cpc%7CSK%7Cpc%7CS5%7Cpc%7CC8%7Cpc%7CCK%7Cpc%7CHT%7Cpc%7CC9%7Cpc%7CC7%7Cpc%7CC4%7Cpc%7CS9%7Cpc%7CCT%7Cpc%7CCJ%7Cpc%7CS8%7Cpc%7CSJ%7Cpc%7CSQ%7Cpc%7CHK%7C]360|270[/hv]

[diana_eva]

Your action put you in a good position, but your LHO's odd action turned it around. At all of the other tables, North bid 1N to either open or overcall 1♣. When it was an overcall, East was able to double. At your table, North doubled your 1♣, and your side ended up buying the contract instead of hurting North.

 

[hv=bbo=y&lin=pn|wackojack,manudude03,gemeouhere,hrothgar|st%7C%7Cmd%7C2S24H359KD28C2589T%2CS68TAH26JDTQAC67J%2CS7JKH4QAD37JC34QK%2C%7Crh%7C%7Cah%7CBoard%2012%7Csv%7Cn%7Cmb%7C1C%7Cmb%7C1N%7Cmb%7Cd%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cpc%7CD5%7Cpc%7CD2%7Cpc%7CDA%7Cpc%7CD3%7Cpc%7CDQ%7Cpc%7CD7%7Cpc%7CD4%7Cpc%7CD8%7Cpc%7CDT%7Cpc%7CDJ%7Cpc%7CDK%7Cpc%7CS4%7Cpc%7CD9%7Cpc%7CS2%7Cpc%7CH6%7Cpc%7CC3%7Cpc%7CD6%7Cpc%7CH3%7Cpc%7CH2%7Cpc%7CH4%7Cpc%7CH7%7Cpc%7CH9%7Cpc%7CHJ%7Cpc%7CHQ%7Cpc%7CHA%7Cpc%7CH8%7Cpc%7CH5%7Cpc%7CS6%7Cpc%7CCQ%7Cpc%7CCA%7Cpc%7CC2%7Cpc%7CC6%7Cpc%7CS3%7Cpc%7CC5%7Cpc%7CSA%7Cpc%7CS7%7Cpc%7CST%7Cpc%7CSK%7Cpc%7CS5%7Cpc%7CC8%7Cpc%7CCK%7Cpc%7CHT%7Cpc%7CC9%7Cpc%7CC7%7Cpc%7CC4%7Cpc%7CS9%7Cpc%7CCT%7Cpc%7CCJ%7Cpc%7CS8%7Cpc%7CSJ%7Cpc%7CSQ%7Cpc%7CHK%7C]360|270[/hv]

 

True, we got fixed by opp refusing to make the 1NT overcall. but what amused me was 2 out of 5 passing. I really thought it was a 100% opener, which is why I polled.

[nige1]

[hv=pc=n&s=http://www.bridgebase.com/tools/handviewer.html?bbo=y&lin=pn|South,West,North,East|st%7C%7Cmd%7C2S24H359KD28C2589T%2CS68TAH26JDTQAC67J%2CS7JKH4QAD37JC34QK%2C%7Crh%7C%7Cah%7CBoard%2012%7Csv%7Cn%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C1N%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cpc%7CD5%7Cpc%7CD2%7Cpc%7CDA%7Cpc%7CD3%7Cpc%7CDQ%7Cpc%7CD7%7Cpc%7CD4%7Cpc%7CD8%7Cpc%7CDT%7Cpc%7CDJ%7Cpc%7CDK%7Cpc%7CS2%7Cpc%7CD9%7Cpc%7CH3%7Cpc%7CS8%7Cpc%7CS7%7Cpc%7CD6%7Cpc%7CC2%7Cpc%7CS6%7Cpc%7CC3%7Cpc%7CS3%7Cpc%7CS4%7Cpc%7CSA%7Cpc%7CSJ%7Cpc%7CST%7Cpc%7CSK%7Cpc%7CS5%7Cpc%7CH5%7Cpc%7CH4%7Cpc%7CH7%7Cpc%7CHK%7Cpc%7CH2%7Cpc%7CH9%7Cpc%7CH6%7Cpc%7CHA%7Cpc%7CH8%7Cpc%7CHQ%7Cpc%7CHT%7Cpc%7CC5%7Cpc%7CHJ%7Cpc%7CCK%7Cpc%7CCA%7Cpc%7CC8%7Cpc%7CC6%7Cpc%7CSQ%7Cpc%7CCT%7Cpc%7CC7%7Cpc%7CC4%7Cpc%7CS9%7Cpc%7CC9%7Cpc%7CCJ%7Cpc%7CCQ%7C]320|240|OK this was a poll for my own fun, sorry. I also thought it was a WTP opener, which I did at the table. The hand was played today in BBF Indy where 3 out of 5 tables opened, 2 passed, and out of those 3 who opened I was the only one in 2♠+1 for a cold zero. Here's what happened at the other tables:

 

1 1NxN-3 800 100.00%

2 1NN-3 300 75.00%

3 1NN-2 200 50.00%

4 2♠W+2 170 25.00%

5 2♠W+1 140 0.00% <------ diana_eva's score[/hv]

IMO your should open. My partner opened and our auction was

1♣ (1N) Double (Pass)

2♠ Passed out.

Partner played well to make 10 tricks.

[mikestar13]

I even open this playing a style where I pass (average or worse) flat 12's-- it's a better hand than a fair number of 13's I've opened. Even an indisputably right action (more certainly right than this hand) will go wrong once in a while, where an obviously wrong action works out.

I once bid a game with a 9 card heart fit with 27 HCP in the combined hands--and went down one when opening leader lead his stiff to partner's Ace, leading to a defensive crossruff. I take it no one believes that hand should have stopped in a partial.

[mike777]

If every I get to play with

Rosenberg I pass/with the mighty Roth I pass

 

fwiw I hope to someday play Al roth style with Justin/ I would be lucky

 

 

With Justin open

[chasetb]

Diana, I open the West hand if playing a Strong Club (or online with randoms), but I pass otherwise. I love the two bullets and the ♦ holding, but I hate the fact that we are 4333 shape and that Jxx is essentially worthless.

[PhantomSac]

How is jxx essentially worthless? A jack is worth more than a small card

[akwoo]

I'm the pass vote, but I don't mind opening, and would open 1N if that was systemic.

 

I think 4333 hands are terrible, and I also don't want to have bid only my worst suit if opps buy the contract.

 

Partner will act if we shouldn't be on defense. 1♣ doesn't have preemptive value as an opening bid.

[kuhchung]

I hope you know I was kidding when I said to pass during the tourney Diana, haha

 

thymepuns was messaging me about how badly you guys got fixed

[MrAce]

How is jxx essentially worthless? A jack is worth more than a small card

 

It is amazing that I also see this type of comments a lot. I ask myself "did these people never pay attention all these years during the play to what is going on at the table?" What I mean is, the cards that they call worthless can actually be very valuable and they still can not see it.

 

For example, I had a Jxx in suit where my opponents overcalled. And this J did not produce any trick for me when my pd held xxx in this suit.. Opponents had AKxxx vs Qx. When the guy started A from AKxxx defense was dead. He either had to cash the K and give him ruff from a holding which already had a natural trump trick, or stop leading this suit, in both of which I was cold for making it. There are a lot of times, these worthless cards for you, are actually very valuable for defense. If you did not have it, they would have, and that would amazingly made their communications, leads better.

 

I have seen so many times my LHO led a suit to solve my problems because he did not want to lead from his AQ holding in another suit where I held stiff K. A so called worthless card. It indeed did not give me any trick, But it made my LHO to try to find an entry to his pd so he can play this suit towards his AQ each time he held a trick. Most players who advances from intermediate to advance, knows and uses the term "right siding the contract" I guess this sounds good to the ear. Which is fine and indeed it is important to try to right side the contract. But all these cards that they easily trash and give zero value or call worthless, gives defenders whole lot more problems than right siding the contract. But their "loser count" or whatever formula that they rely on instead of their logic and experience says these cards are worthless. How can some people ignore this or fail to see it, escapes me by a mile.

 

No need to mention, I have yet to see a hand evaluation tool, such as KnR or Zar or whatever you may think of, taking out the full value of a card that some people call "worthless". They don't even take out half value of an honor in most cases. Maybe I am just very lucky and only person who is benefitting the most from these so called "worthless" cards.

[diana_eva]

I hope you know I was kidding when I said to pass during the tourney Diana, haha

 

thymepuns was messaging me about how badly you guys got fixed

 

Oh I know you were joking, and it was funny to see this passed in a BBF Indy. As for getting fixed, this one wasn't even the best fix in that tourney!

 

Here's my all time fav fix so far (1Cx-1 for 0%):

 

[hv=pc=n&s=SAHK984DKJ2CKT972&w=SK85HAJ5DA7CAQJ86&n=SQT32HQ63DQT94C54&e=SJ9764HT72D8653C3&d=e&v=o&a=P1CDPPP&p=DAD4D3D2D7D9D5DKH4H5HQH2C4C3C9CJS5S2SJSACKCAC5S4SKS3S6C2DJC6DTD6S8SQS7H8STS9H9C8CQH3D8C7HAH6H7HKHJDQHTCT]399|300[/hv]

[MrAce]

Oh I know you were joking, and it was funny to see this passed in a BBF Indy. As for getting fixed, this one wasn't even the best fix in that tourney!

 

Here's my all time fav fix so far (1Cx-1 for 0%):

 

[hv=pc=n&s=SAHK984DKJ2CKT972&w=SK85HAJ5DA7CAQJ86&n=SQT32HQ63DQT94C54&e=SJ9764HT72D8653C3&d=e&v=o&a=P1CDPPP&p=DAD4D3D2D7D9D5DKH4H5HQH2C4C3C9CJS5S2SJSACKCAC5S4SKS3S6C2DJC6DTD6S8SQS7H8STS9H9C8CQH3D8C7HAH6H7HKHJDQHTCT]399|300[/hv]

 

Who was East?

[PhantomSac]

It doesn't even have to be as complicated as all that, sometimes your partner just has a holding that makes your jack worth something. Like an honor. I mean in the hand given, we have 2 out of 4 suits where partner having Jxx would be of a lot of value (AT8x opp Jxx is way better than AT8x opp xxx obv, and Jxx opp AQT is a lot better than xxx opp AQT). The 2 suits we didn't have a holding where a jack would be worthwhile....we had the jack of that suit.

 

A Jxx is not great. It is not as good as Qxx, but it is better than xxx. If I had to estimate, I would say it is worth about 1 point, while a queen is worth 2 and a king is worth 3 and an ace is worth 4. If you don't count Jxx then I guess you don't agree with point count. If you are saying yeah a jack is worth 1 in point count, but a stray jack should be downgraded, I totally agree, it is worth fractionally less than 1. However we must also upgrade holdings like AQT and AT8x which are significantly better than AQx and Axxx, and even those are worth more than the traditional point count indicates since aces and quick tricks are undervalued. So Jxx is not great, but aces and quicktricks and nice spot cards working with them are worth more. Passing 12 counts with some positive features seems silly. I especially don't understnad "I would open 1N if I could but I would not open 1C." If you would open 1N since you systemically open 12-14 balanced with 1N, then why not open 1C which systemically could be 12-14 balanced with clubs >= to diamonds?