Liversidge Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 Next week I am playing as a one off with an experienced player. As we left the club last night he said he plays the strong 2 Club, and that I should show an ace by bidding the suit, regardless of suit length, and he will take it from there. He didn't have time to discuss it further and assured me that he was quite relaxed about it all, saying we were bound to get a few things wrong but 'it's just a game', but I'd like to brush up on it beforehand, even though it's unlikely to come up. I can find quite a few variations on responder bids but not anything that covers this. Another club member plays the same system. Any help welcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wank Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 it's a terrible idea. not helpful i know. i'm guessing it's something like 2d = no ace, 2h = ace, 2s = ace, 2nt = 2+ aces, 3c = ace, 3d = ace. i'd just check what he plays 2nt as. it would be obvious to a child that you're pre-empting your strongest hands for very little gain. you try bidding akjxxx akqx void aqx after 2c-3d when you've no idea about responder's shape. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahydra Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 I'd recommend one of these: - 2D = negative, suit = 5+ positive (pretty standard at club level)- 2D = relay, 2H = double negative, suit = 6+ cards with 2 of top 3 (big improvement)- or even a simple "2C forces 2D". Showing specific aces isn't worth it by a long shot. You're denying opener the room he needs. ahydra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgoetze Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 As wank says, terrible idea. The good news is, if you are playing just one session of bridge, this is a vast underdog to ever come up, so don't waste too much time thinking about it. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 Don't worry about it. 2c openings probably won't come up anyway. Make sure you have agreements about things that are likely to come up:- in which contested auctions do stayman and transfers apply- basic agreements about negative doubles. - how do you bid when they interfere over your 1nt opening- ranges of notrump rebids- which suit to open with 4432 types including a major and a minor- which bids are forcing/gameforcing after responders two level reply- which signals do you give on partners lead- does the lead of a small spot show an honour or could it be fourth best from rubish- do you lead top of nothing against notrump 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billw55 Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 Next week I am playing as a one off with an experienced player. As we left the club last night he said he plays the strong 2 Club, and that I should show an ace by bidding the suit, regardless of suit length, and he will take it from there. And what does he plan to do if you open 2♣? http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif He didn't have time to discuss it further and assured me that he was quite relaxed about it all, saying we were bound to get a few things wrong but 'it's just a game'It sounds like he has a good attitude about it. I wouldn't worry too much. Usually I find that in a one time game, it is best just to play what partner wants even if it is bad. With a recurring partnership, you will want to develop something that is both more detailed and less wasteful. But that is another thread. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mycroft Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 When I have two minutes to organize a game, I don't even think about 2♣ openers. But I'm a bad card holder, so I never get to open that anyway - and if I do, my rebid is universally 2NT, so who cares. I agree with the posters above: for a one-off, if you can remember it, don't worry about whatever you play. CAB responses to 2♣ aren't efficient, sure, but when they work, boy do they work - and if the expert is the 2♣ opener, she'll know how to ask for what else she needs. For all the inefficiencies this will cause, not knowing what partner will lead middle of the hand from three small (and the other thousand things of that "inconsequence") is going to cost you more. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagles123 Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 So A KQxxxx xxx xxx we respond 2s?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kuhchung Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 2D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 It sounds like he has a good attitude about it. I wouldn't worry too much. Usually I find that in a one time game, it is best just to play what partner wants even if it is bad. I don't like this players attitude. He's given you a pet method and very little to go by. While I'm calling this a pet method it sounds strangely like Standard Goren (after weak 2's). There it was 2♦ negative, everything else is positive. I wouldn't go out of my way to show a five bagger at the 3 level and would just lie with 2N. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 I have played control showing responses to 2♣ openers. On many hands, this works quite nicely. I have never played Ace showing responses to 2♣ openings. This sounds like a holdover from the old Schenken strong club system, in which a 2♦ opening bid was STRONG and I believe that responses showed aces. This may be why you don't see anyone playing Schenken club anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 The folka who predict that 2C won't come up in this one session will be wrong. I predict he will open 2C at least once, and that he won't have a 2C opener. Put your money down where my mouth is. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akwoo Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 This is known as Albarran and also by some other name in Italian. I get the impression it has some popularity in France/Italy/Spain and is rarely played elsewhere. It's certainly better than point count showing responses. For a partnership of beginners who can't get control showing cue bids straight, I'd recommend this method. Otherwise I think it wastes too much space. You should play that 4N by a 2♣ opener asks for number of kings when it would ordinarily be Blackwood. EDIT: I remember now - it's Crodo in Italian 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted January 17, 2015 Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 It's certainly better than point count showing responses.I am not sure. Usually the 2♣ opener has some aces so it is redundant if responder tells opener which aces he has. Suppose you have three aces and responder bids 3♦ to show the ace of diamonds .... Point counts sometimes allows opener to take initiative. For example, if it goes2♣-whatever3♦-3NT or 2♣-whatever3♣-3♥3♠-3NT then it would be nice for opener to know if responder has enough for opener to move towards slam. But OK, maybe the window between the second negative and responder's slam force is narrow enough that opener will know anyway. I am not advocating point steps, but I think specific aces are even worse. But probably it all depends on your requirements for a 2♣ opener. My dad used to play that 2♣ virtualy guarantees a one-suited or balanced hand, since most strong two-suiters could open at the 1-level (they never passed a minor suit opening if they had a king). In that style, responder doesn't need to show a suit and control steps are probably reasonable. I rarely open 2♣ with primarily a minor suit but I could easily have a two-suiter or a 5431 with a major as longest suit. In that style, I prefer responder to show a long suit or to leave the bidding space to opener. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1eyedjack Posted January 17, 2015 Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 Perhaps your bigger problem is not how to respond to 2C. Your partner has already told you that he just wants you to cue bid an Ace, whereupon apparently he will know what to do. I think your bigger problem is how to proceed when you are the one who has a 2C opener and partner unhelpfully follows his own advice and just shows you an ace. Maybe you should restrict your own 2C openers to those where you can place the final contract in the knowledge of partner's ace. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve2005 Posted January 17, 2015 Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 So A KQxxxx xxx xxx we respond 2s??Yes, What a great system. not! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne_LV Posted January 17, 2015 Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 There must be 50 or more variations on 2♣ opening bids and responses. What works as well and any and better than most is to play 2♦ always waiting. Many will tell you that is a wasted bid but in reality most of the other methods use up more bidding space. 2♣ says: "Partner I have a big hand"2♦ says: "Great, tell me more" With the exception of minors, the bidding is now at the exact point it was in days gone by when all 2 bids were strong. After the 2♣ - 2♦ relay, follow on bids can be the same as outlined in Goren Complete and they still work today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daffydoc Posted January 17, 2015 Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 don't like the idea - but apparently your pard will only open 2bids where all he needs is an ace - really cuts down on communication - but if that's pards pet toy I can live with it since A - 2 bids not that common and B - having an Ace opp also not so very common - so let pard have his way with a relatively harmless although possibly useless convention. daffydoc PS of course I also do not like 2H dbl neg - and insist upon positive response 2/3 honors in 5+ suit. 2D waiting really works quite well in most scenarios if one knows the basic follow up.s 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted January 18, 2015 Report Share Posted January 18, 2015 IMO the real answer to the "when do we open strong 2♣ and what do we do after that?" question is to play Precision. B-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1eyedjack Posted January 18, 2015 Report Share Posted January 18, 2015 IMO the real answer to the "when do we open strong 2♣ and what do we do after that?" question is to play Precision. B-)The auction will still be at the 3 level when it comes back to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted January 18, 2015 Report Share Posted January 18, 2015 The auction will still be at the 3 level when it comes back to you.Sometimes. So what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
campboy Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 I have never played Ace showing responses to 2♣ openings. This sounds like a holdover from the old Schenken strong club system, in which a 2♦ opening bid was STRONG and I believe that responses showed aces. This may be why you don't see anyone playing Schenken club anymore.I once (5-10 years ago) encountered a pair playing this in conjunction with stolen-bid doubles: they opened 2♦, showing a hand too strong to open a strong club, I overcalled 2♠ and the next player doubled, alerted as showing the ace of spades. I'm not sure of the rest of the auction, but someone used Blackwood with a void (not in spades) and they ended up in a making slam :rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovera Posted February 27, 2015 Report Share Posted February 27, 2015 This convenction is known as "CRODO"( where C=color, R=range, O=orphans ) and is used on 2♣ opening (3 losers or less). The scale is:2♦=0 Ace, 2♥, 2♠, 3♣, 3♦= color(=suit) with the Ace of.., 3♥=2 Aces with the same color (red or black), 3♠=2 Aces with the same range (major or minor), 3NT=2 Aces orphans= different for range and color (spade/diamond or heart/club) and at fuor level the lacking Ace when partner has three Aces. Consequently 4NT=? for Kings (5♣=0/4 Kings, 5♦=1 King, ..) and 5NT=? for Queens with the same scale on steps. The 2♣ Crodo is forcing until manche.(Lovera) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikestar13 Posted February 27, 2015 Report Share Posted February 27, 2015 I once (5-10 years ago) encountered a pair playing this in conjunction with stolen-bid doubles: they opened 2♦, showing a hand too strong to open a strong club, I overcalled 2♠ and the next player doubled, alerted as showing the ace of spades. I'm not sure of the rest of the auction, but someone used Blackwood with a void (not in spades) and they ended up in a making slam :rolleyes: They were only describing the ultra strong balanced hand alternative, which would indeed be too strong for 1♣. The unbalanced alternative showed a hand not "stronger" than 1♣ but with a sure game and no interest in partner's shape, but looking for specific honors for slam. A terrible convention because of rarity--the bid itself was a thing of beauty the once a year (i you play every day) that it happened. I have a copy of Better Bidding in 15 Minutes on my bookshelf. The 2♦ opener is not one of Schenken's ideas I've used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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