Pard opens 12-14 nt, you have a 5C major

[jillybean]

Paying 12-14 nt

 

1N - 2♣ non forcing stayman, 2♦ forcing stayman, 2M to play, 2N relay to 3♣/♦

 

1N - 3♣ Puppet, 3♦ Invitational, 3♥ 3154, 3♠ 1354 (slammish) We often use puppet but the other 3 level responses seldom come up.

1N 2N 3♣ 3M is the start of keycard sequence.

1N - 2♣ - 2N 6 card minor (I don't think we need this with the weak nt)

 

We have no method to invite with a 5 card major, suggestions please?

[manudude03]

2C-response-2/3M?

[ArtK78]

This is basic 2-way Stayman.

 

2♣ starts all invitational auctions. Thereafter, all bidding is natural.

 

So:

 

1NT - 2♣

2♦ - 2M shows 5 cards in the bid major with invitational values.

 

1NT - 2♣

2♥ - 2♠ shows 5 spades with invitational values

 

1NT - 2♣

2♠ - 3♥ shows 5 hearts with invitational values

 

In all cases, the 2M bid by responder is not forcing.

[jillybean]

2C-response-2/3M?

 

2M 2♦ w/o

[jillybean]

This is basic 2-way Stayman.

 

2♣ starts all invitational auctions. Thereafter, all bidding is natural.

 

So:

 

1NT - 2♣

2♦ - 2M shows 5 cards in the bid major with invitational values.

 

1NT - 2♣

2♥ - 2♠ shows 5 spades with invitational values

 

1NT - 2♣

2♠ - 3♥ shows 5 hearts with invitational values

 

In all cases, the 2M bid by responder is not forcing.

 

I think this works :)

[the hog]

Paying 12-14 nt

snipped

 

We have no method to invite with a 5 card major, suggestions please?

 

Give up 2 way stayman and play transfers.

 

"1NT - 2♣

2♥ - 2♠ shows 5 spades with invitational values

 

1NT - 2♣

2♠ - 3♥ shows 5 hearts with invitational values"

 

You want to play at the level in a possible 5-2 fit?

[mike777]

This is old fashion but what I was taught years ago, I hope helpful:

 

1nt=2c

2x=2s

 

1) minimum and 3s opener may pass

2) rebid 2nt with minimum and 2s

------------

 

1nt=2c

2x=3h or 3s inv with 6 card suit.

---------------

 

so the problem is 5h and inv

 

1nt=2c

2d or 2s=now rebid 2nt

opener with minimum will pass

opener with max and 3h bids 3h.

--------------

 

1nt=2c

2d=2h=garbage stayman.

Q873...Q964...873...j4

[chasetb]

Jill, I have an old book for Beginners that is still in print - 5 Card Major Bridge Teacher's Manual. In it, it uses 1NT - 2♣; 2x - 2M as INV with a 5-card suit. In the rare case of 1NT - 2♣; 2♠, 2NT shows 4 OR 5 ♥, INV. 1NT - 2♣; 2x - 3M (where x DOES NOT = M) is GF with a 6+ card Major, looking for cuebids.

 

GF 5-card Majors go through 2♦. I might also suggest that you ditch 3♣ as Puppet and slightly adjust your 2♦ bid so that: 2M = 4 cards, may have the other Major / 2NT = No 4-card Major / 3M = 5 cards, and use whatever you want for 3m.

[TylerE]

Play transfers.

[jillybean]

Give up 2 way stayman and play transfers.

 

 

2 or 4 way transfers and have all 4333 invitational hands go via 2♣?

[Fluffy]

This is basic 2-way Stayman.

 

2♣ starts all invitational auctions. Thereafter, all bidding is natural.

 

So:

 

1NT - 2♣

2♦ - 2M shows 5 cards in the bid major with invitational values.

 

1NT - 2♣

2♥ - 2♠ shows 5 spades with invitational values

 

1NT - 2♣

2♠ - 3♥ shows 5 hearts with invitational values

 

In all cases, the 2M bid by responder is not forcing.

 

I play this except that 2♣-2♥-2♠ is 4+ spades, partner passes with minimums with 3 cards, bids 2NT with minumum and 2, 3NT with maximum and 2, 3♠ with maximum and 3, and 4♠ with maximum and 4.

 

I also play 2♥ scrambling rather than invitational, but both things are playable, by not having a 2♥ invite we are allowed to raise a 1NT-2♥ response, far from perfect though, but scrambling hands seem to be a lot more likelly than invitationals with 5♥. We still can bid 2♣ + 3♥ if we want to although we rarely do with 5 cards only.

[Zelandakh]

2 or 4 way transfers and have all 4333 invitational hands go via 2♣?

3-way transfers and have diamond hands go through 2♣. B-)

[trevahound]

Play transfers.

 

In my experience, playing transfers and a weak nt is a case of two great things that go horribly together. The weak NT puts pressure on the opps that transfers largely remove.

 

As one of the other posters noted, I also think 1nt - 2♣ // 2♠ - 2nt includes invites with 5 hearts, with opener bidding 3♥ "on the way" if accepting.

[Vampyr]

Play transfers.

 

Or know your methods, whatever they are. Partner opens 1NT and I have a 5-card major is not a question that should need to be asked by anyone who has been playing more than a week.

[jillybean]

Or know your methods, whatever they are. Partner opens 1NT and I have a 5-card major is not a question that should need to be asked by anyone who has been playing more than a week.

 

This very unhelpful and hostile, so too are those who give an up vote to this type of comment. This forum is for people who are wanting to learn to and ask questions.

 

I have recently started playing weak nt and don't know the ins & out of the system, delete that, it shouldn't matter WHY I am asking a question

[Vampyr]

This very unhelpful and hostile, so too are those who give an up vote to this type of comment. This forum is for people who are wanting to learn to and ask questions.

 

I have recently started playing weak nt and don't know the ins & out of the system, delete that, it shouldn't matter WHY I am asking a question

 

Actually I thought my comment might be helpful. You have chosen to play two-way Stayman without having any idea how it works (or, presumably, what problem you are trying to solve). Players who are system-mad often waste time and energy that they should be using to learn to think at the bridge table.

 

I confess that I suffered a bit from this madness myself back in my youth, so I do speak from experience. And I find, many years later, that the habit of not stopping to think, once formed, is hard to break.

[PhilKing]

This very unhelpful and hostile, so too are those who give an up vote to this type of comment. This forum is for people who are wanting to learn to and ask questions.

 

I have recently started playing weak nt and don't know the ins & out of the system, delete that, it shouldn't matter WHY I am asking a question

 

You ask the question, but regard answers that say you are barking up the wrong tree as hostile. The fact is, almost every top pair in the world plays Stayman and transfers, regardless of range. But probably you will ignore this post and only accept ones that pander to your whims.

[the hog]

In my experience, playing transfers and a weak nt is a case of two great things that go horribly together. The weak NT puts pressure on the opps that transfers largely remove.

 

As one of the other posters noted, I also think 1nt - 2♣ // 2♠ - 2nt includes invites with 5 hearts, with opener bidding 3♥ "on the way" if accepting.

 

This is a very frequent combination. Pray tell how does a transfer remove pressure when the responder can be 0-10?

[Vampyr]

This is a very frequent combination. Pray tell how does a transfer remove pressure when the responder can be 0-10?

 

Yes, I have been wondering this myself. It seems to me that 2-way Stayman relieves pressure, as opps immediately know whether you are game-going, and when the 2♦ relay is played the opps have an extra chance to get together in hearts when the NT side have a spade fit.

 

Also it seems that giving up Garbage Stayman must be a loser, especially when playing a weak NT.

 

Edit: LOL as to frequency, I estimate over 90% in England, not that that is an endorsement or otherwise of the combination!

[jillybean]

You ask the question, but regard answers that say you are barking up the wrong tree as hostile. The fact is, almost every top pair in the world plays Stayman and transfers, regardless of range. But probably you will ignore this post and only accept ones that pander to your whims.

 

I ask these questions because I don't know the answer. I did not know that almost every top pair in the world plays stayman & transfers , regardless of range, I do not know how people play weak no trump, it is uncommon where I play. The methods I picked up from local players here were the ones outlined in the OP

 

Vampyr's response is at a minimum, unhelpful and unfriendly. If you look at her posts they are often sarcastic, snippy responses to straight forward questions. I don't recall her ever actually asking a question.

 

I'm done with the sarcastic, unfriendly and sometimes abusive responses that are tolerated on here. There are a few posters here who have helped me immensley and thank you, but I no longer want to put up with the crap that has become the norm on here.

[akwoo]

1) In North America, I would suggest you play transfers with the 12-14 NT. Not because it is inherently superior (I don't know whether it is or not), but because the main disadvantage of transfers here is that opponents get an extra half round of bidding to intervene, and people not playing transfers is so rare in North America that almost no pairs have ever discussed how to use that extra half round.

 

2) This is a solved problem. Practically very website on mini-NT (i.e. 10-12) gives a solution. The Kaplan-Sheinwold system (also on the web) gives a similar solution (though they don't use 2-way Stayman, leaving 2♦ as a weak takeout). For that matter, Goren gave a solution (also without 2-way Stayman) back in the days before transfers were invented. The forums are good for judgement questions, and the forums are good for questions involving innovations in bidding. They are not so good for questions for which half an hour with Google will give you far more information than any thread can provide.

[the hog]

I ask these questions because I don't know the answer. I did not know that almost every top pair in the world plays stayman & transfers , regardless of range, I do not know how people play weak no trump, it is uncommon where I play. The methods I picked up from local players here were the ones outlined in the OP

 

Vampyr's response is at a minimum, unhelpful and unfriendly. If you look at her posts they are often sarcastic, snippy responses to straight forward questions. I don't recall her ever actually asking a question.

 

I'm done with the sarcastic, unfriendly and sometimes abusive responses that are tolerated on here. There are a few posters here who have helped me immensley and thank you, but I no longer want to put up with the crap that has become the norm on here.

 

Jilly, I have always enjoyed your posts and your zest for learning. Please do not give up posting here. Seriously, that would be a loss for these fora.

[blackshoe]

Jilly, try this book. Here's a sample.

[the hog]

Jilly, ask which top pairs play 2 way Stayman? None that I can think of. Now there must be a reason for this.

Here are two schemes that I have played. They are very different and I like both.

1NT

2D t/f to H. Super accept allowed if you have 4 card support and no soft values

After 2H 2S = GF both Ms

2N = invit

3m = gf

3H = invit with 6+

3S/4C/D = autosplinters

 

Similar after 1NT 2H

 

2S = range ask Opener bids 2NT min,

2NT = 4441 or t/f to C. Opener bids 3C now bid suit below s/t

3m = invit

3H/S = gf

 

Or you could try this version of Gladiator

 

1NT 2C stay

2H/S - INVIT 5 card suits. Pass with min. Bid 3M with max and 4333 with 4 in M, 3m = weak xx

2D = puppet to 2H. Now Pass or 2S = weak with that suit, 2NT = baron, 3m = gf with that m, 3M = GF with that M

3m = invit

3M = fragment

 

This is quite fun, especially when you alert 2D.

[Zelandakh]

The fact is, almost every top pair in the world plays Stayman and transfers, regardless of range.

You are being a little harsh on Fluffy, who was playing a non-transfer method with his weak NT partner in Lille. Not to mention Brink-Drijver and plenty of other international players. While I do play transfers, the idea that one has to play them with a weak NT is just wrong. There are plenty of other solutions around, some of which are quite popular in places. Of the alternatives, 2-way Stayman is probably the one most often seen, even if it is (arguably) not the best.

 

The truth is that there are not a huge number of top pairs playing a weak NT throughout these days. Of those that do I guess around 20% are playing something other than Stayman + transfers. Aside from Fantunes, I am not sure how many of these pairs would qualify as "world class" by Ron's standards!