Silly poll on English language

[blackshoe]

Funny. When I was in elementary, junior high, and high school, some half a century ago and more, my English teachers not only knew how English is structured, they required us to learn it too. So it seems to me that if the current crop of native-English speaking English teachers can't explain how the language is structured, there's something seriously wrong with the educational system wherever they came from, and in particular with the teacher certification process.

[mgoetze]

It needs to contain "driving" in the continuous tense and some form of the verb "to drink".

Before reading the post associated with your poll, "drunk driving" seemed like an obvious winner to me. But it's not the right answer to your question because "drunk driving" contains not the past participle of the verb "to drink", but rather the adjective "drunk" being used as an adverb. The fact that they are spelled the same is purely coincidental.

 

Therefore, my answer to the question as you phrased it is "drinking and driving".

 

The first/primary form of English that I learned was Canadian English.

[Mbodell]

I voted "drunk driving" because that is sort of what seemed right. But I started thinking about it more as reading the thread and I'm not so sure. The issue is that I usually think of it as not an activity, but a person. So I think of a "drunk driver". As in, he was injured in an accident with a drunk driver. Or, after drinking too much on New Year's, Bob got a ticket for being a drunk driver. Although that last one could easily be "a ticket for drinking and driving". But saying they got a DUI also is easily recognizable (DWI as well, but DUI > DWI for me).

 

Finally:

 

DUI driving: 30.6 M

DWI driving: 11.7 M

"drunk driving": 10.7 M

"drinking and driving": 6.27 M

"drink driving": 1.61 M

"drunken driving": 1.26 M

 

These are all google hit numbers for me (note for the two acronyms I added driving to narrow the field but didn't require it to be that phrase, while the quoted strings need to be exact matches).

[gordontd]

(In addition, both our kids have been using "I amn't" instead of "I'm not" for ages. I think we got rid of that by now.)

"I amn't" is routinely used by my Scottish relatives, who argue perfectly reasonably that it's acceptable to say "we aren't" or "we're not".

[the hog]

"whilst" is not a word on this side of the pond.

 

Really? It is in the Merriam Webster dictionary.

Whilst refers to specific time. While is general.

Whilst I did the dishes she entertained the guests. (While here would sound incorrect to a native speaker).

She often entertains the guests while I do the dishes.

[mgoetze]

Whilst I did the dishes she entertained the guests. (While here would sound incorrect to a native speaker).

I assure you it would not sound incorrect to the vast majority of Americans.

[gnasher]

I think drink driving is the phrase we use here in England, and Wikipedia says that's the UK & Australian usage, but I see RMB1 has given a different answer. I could say his answer doesn't count because he doesn't drive, but then he might say mine doesn't count because I don't drink.

 

I gave the same answer as Robin, and I don't drive either. Perhaps that has given both of us more time to study the English language?

 

I think that the distinction between "drunk" and "drunken" is (or used to be) that "drunk" describes the state of being drunk, and "drunken" describes something that is affected by someone's being drunk. As in:

 

"You're drunk."

"A drunken stagger."

 

"Drink driving" is, I expect, a term invented by bureaucrats to cover not only drunken driving but also the entire spectrum of driving whilst affected by alcohol. As with most such phrases, it's illiterate, except in the rather unusual sense of driving a drink.

[Zelandakh]

Just to mention that the legal basis for this is the Road Traffic Act 1991. Within this the relevant offence is "Driving under influence of drink or drugs". The Act also contains the construction "drink-drive". If one looks elsewhere on the UK government websites one can also find the unhyphenated form "drink driving". I did not find "drinking and driving" (but also did not look too hard, it would not surprise me if it is there) - to me it sounds acceptable but old-fashioned. I would tend to agree with others that "drunk driving" and its derivatives are an Americanism although I also found this in use on some UK websites.

 

On the side issue, I lived in Scotland for a few years and never once heard the phrase "I amn't". I do not think this in general usage.

 

Finally, if someone is teaching English I would expect them to be able to explain about rules for constructing English sentences and about alternative translations. One of the most important things in translations is precisely that it is often best not to translate something directly. These are things that I sometimes do here in Germany with "interested" colleagues as a mathematician/IT guy, so for a teaching professional not to have that ability is ridiculous. For sure, they might have to think about difficult cases but simply not to have the knowledge to do so is unacceptable.

 

As you describe it, it sounds like the school is not providing a suitable level of education and that your child is being disadvantaged about it. If it were me I would take the matter to the Headmaster (Am: Principle). It cannot be that low grades are given because the student provides work more advanced than the teacher can follow. Even worse if the student is being asked to learn a lower form of English.

 

A caveat though. English is well-known as a language of exceptions and few absolute rules. While any teacher should be able to describe the basic sentence constructions, that construction might not be ideal for a more complex clause. It is genuinely difficult to provide rules sometimes, especially if an answer is expected immediately. On the other hand, it is easy for a native speaker to create a half dozen example sentences of related forms and from this to spot the pattern. That costs time, of course, so I understand why a teacher might be reluctant to do so for every piece of homework. Not to do so for specific, occasional questions is just being lazy imho.

[Bbradley62]

"whilst" is not a word on this side of the pond.

Really? It is in the Merriam Webster dictionary.

 

Definition of WHILST

chiefly British

: while

 

Examples of WHILST

 

<I like to get my knitting done whilst watching the telly.>

Excellent example -- Americans would never use the word "telly" either.

[kenberg]

I gave the same answer as Robin, and I don't drive either. Perhaps that has given both of us more time to study the English language?

 

I think that the distinction between "drunk" and "drunken" is (or used to be) that "drunk" describes the state of being drunk, and "drunken" describes something that is affected by someone's being drunk. As in:

 

"You're drunk."

"A drunken stagger."

 

"Drink driving" is, I expect, a term invented by bureaucrats to cover not only drunken driving but also the entire spectrum of driving whilst affected by alcohol. As with most such phrases, it's illiterate, except in the rather unusual sense of driving a drink.

 

This is what I was trying to say with my preference for drunken driving over drunk driving.

However, if a cop gave me a ticked for drunk driving I would not try to get it dismissed by arguing that I was really engaged in drunken driving.

 

"drink driving" sounds awful to me.

 

If I may go a bit off topic, but still in the area of how kids are taught:

 

One of the grandkids called for advice. He is 10 and had a problem in math. A kid owes his mothe $75 and is paying her back at the rate of $5 per week. The first issue, and with this there was no trouble, was to determine how much he still owes his mother after 6 weeks of payment. He can do this. The next question was, as closely as I can recall,"Explain the pattern using the independent variable x as the number of payments and the dependent variable y as the amount owed". Huh? His mother, my wife's daughter, said "Call your grandparents, they know this stuff". After some discussion, we decided that probably the answer should be "As the independent variable x increases by 1, the dependent variable y decreases by 5". But really, I don't know. I think of these questions as "Read the teacher's mind" questions. His mother is smart enough but not trained in the lingo. Is some farm mother, or factory worker mother, or father, actually supposed to be able to help with this?

I think kids need to be able to use mathematics to carefully work through practical issues. Who owes who, or rather who owes whom, how much? How long will it take to pay off the debt? If the mother is charging interest, how much will the total of the interest charges be? Maybe some moral lesson about why you should not spend money you don't have. If the kid eventually wants to get into mathematics, there will be time enough to learn about independent and dependent variables.

 

 

Back to the OP. Drunk driving, drunken driving, driving while drunk, etc etc, why on Earth should one be right and the others wrong? Most of us grew up learning English "adequately". Presumably that is the goal for a class in English as a second language. If the kid, or the adult, then wants to pursue precise grammar as a profession or a hobby, that's his business.

[Trinidad]

Back to the OP. Drunk driving, drunken driving, driving while drunk, etc etc, why on Earth should one be right and the others wrong? Most of us grew up learning English "adequately". Presumably that is the goal for a class in English as a second language. If the kid, or the adult, then wants to pursue precise grammar as a profession or a hobby, that's his business.

I agree with you to some extent when your point is: If the kid translates from his own language into English and he does it as grammatically and semantically correct as the average American COP (i.e. incorrect, but everybody knows what is meant), we should be more than happy.

 

Things are a little different when they get a story to read, supposedly written by a native speaker, with the aim to teach these kids English. Then I expect the English to be correct, or to be representative of the incorrect English that is commonly used (which linguistic liberals could argue is correct English by definition). In this case, I saw it and I was absolutely sure that my son made a typo. Given that the school requirements are not as lax as yours and that it is either 100% correct or it is wrong, I want him to be 100% correct on 90% of his answers (which will give him a 90% score), rather than 90% correct on 100% of his answers (which will score a big fat 0, whether you and I agree with that or not).

 

Rik

[Vampyr]

As you describe it, it sounds like the school is not providing a suitable level of education and that your child is being disadvantaged about it. If it were me I would take the matter to the Headmaster (Am: Principle). It cannot be that low grades are given because the student provides work more advanced than the teacher can follow. Even worse if the student is being asked to learn a lower form of English.

 

It is very possible to teach English without knowing the students' native tongue; the problem here is that the teacher is asking the children to do something he cannot do himself, ie translations. This teacher is simply not qualified to grade such work.

 

A slightly related question is where I the English-speaking world is "principle" used for "principal"? This is one I have not seen before.

 

When I mentioned "drink driving" I almost added that it is "official" language and not really used in conversation, but I was lazy. But as others have pointed out, this is the case.

[Vampyr]

I gave the same answer as Robin, and I don't drive either. Perhaps that has given both of us more time to study the English language?

 

I think that the distinction between "drunk" and "drunken" is (or used to be) that "drunk" describes the state of being drunk, and "drunken" describes something that is affected by someone's being drunk.

 

Yes, but then the problem with the answer you and Robin selected is that the driving might not be affected at all, but doing it is still an offence.

 

That being said, I do remember the phrase being popular some years ago. LOL not that it is a generational thing since you are the same age as I and Robin not a whole lot older! But maybe as non-drivers you encounter the term very infrequently.

[Bbradley62]

(In addition, both our kids have been using "I amn't" instead of "I'm not" for ages. I think we got rid of that by now.)

"I amn't" is routinely used by my Scottish relatives, who argue perfectly reasonably that it's acceptable to say "we aren't" or "we're not".

I read Rik's post as "I ain't", which is incorrect but not uncommon in certain circles. I've never seen or heard "I amn't" until now.

[mgoetze]

A slightly related question is where I the English-speaking world is "principle" used for "principal"? This is one I have not seen before.

In much the same places as where "looser" is used for "loser", I assume.

[barmar]

A slightly related question is where I the English-speaking world is "principle" used for "principal"? This is one I have not seen before.

Places wear people confuse homonyms with each other. There are two many places like that.

 

I still remember the mnemonic I learned for this: The principal is my pal.

[barmar]

Google Ngrams reports almost 3x as many uses of "drunk driving" than "drinking and driving" in its book collection. However, they're much closer when restricted to British English.

[blackshoe]

I assure you it would not sound incorrect to the vast majority of Americans.

Most Americans think "whilst" is some kind of namby-pamby English (the people, not the language) thing. It is, however, in my Oxford American English Dictionary (though it does say "chiefly Brit.")

[gnasher]

Yes, but then the problem with the answer you and Robin selected is that the driving might not be affected at all, but doing it is still an offence.

 

None of the answers describe that, and anyway it's not what Trinidad asked. A good way to describe what you're talking about is "Driving with an illegal level of alcohol in your blood". Similarly, a good way to describe what Trinidad asked about is the phrase he himself used in the original post, "driving while under the influence of alcohol". Of course, neither of these meet his other condition of using "to drink" and "driving"

 

Of the other answers we were offered:

- "Drink driving" and "drink-driving" mean "driving a drink".

- "Drunk driving" and "drunk-driving" mean (in English English) "driving a drunk".

- "Drunken-driving" doesn't mean anything, because drunken is an adjective.

- "Drinking and driving" and "drinking-and-driving" imply doing the two simultaneously or alternating between the two, rather than doing one followed by the other.

 

So Robin and I picked the closest one to what Trinidad asked about, although perhaps we should have picked the "other" option and then specified "Driving having drunk" or "Driving following drinking".

[Vampyr]

Places wear people confuse homonyms with each other. There are two many places like that.

 

Yes, homophones ispecifically. "Lead" when you mean "led" has escaped into the wider world. I blame these forums for introducing it.

[Trinidad]

First of all, I would like to thank you in helping me with this.

 

Now, I think it is time to summarize the results. I included the votes from opinions given in posts and I split Barmar's and Bbradley's votes according to their posts. To determine the variety of English people speak, I used whatever they reported themselves. When it was not mentioned, I looked at the location. This inevitably means that mr1303 is considered Mongolian, even though I remember that he emigrated there a while ago, I just don't know from where.

 

The results (in %):

                       Total  ???   CAN   MON    OZ   UK    USA

drink driving           19    38     0     0    100   40     0

drink-driving            3     0     0    100    0     0     0

drunk driving           55    50     0     0     0     0    87

drunk-driving            3    13     0     0     0     0     0

drunken driving          6     0     0     0     0    40     0

drunken-driving          0     0     0     0     0     0     0

drinking & driving      13     0    100    0     0    20    13

drinking-&-driving       0     0     0     0     0     0     0

other                    0     0     0     0     0     0     0

Votes                   31     8     1     1     1     5    15

My non-scientific conclusions:

The Americans use "drunk driving", where "drinking & driving" is also used.

The Brits are split between "drink driving" and "drunken driving", but "drinking & driving" is also acceptable.

It seems pretty clear that the majority view is that, whatever phrase should be used, hyphens do not belong in there.

 

The phrase that my son was taught was "drink-driving", which leads me to the conclusion that mr1303 was the author of this English method. Now I understand why he fled to Mongolia. ;)

 

Like Kenberg, I thought "drink driving" sounded awful. And, IMO, the addition of a hyphen made it even worse.

 

Thanks again for your contributions.

 

Rik

[gwnn]

What's the problem, it's just y=75-5x

[Trinidad]

What's the problem, it's just y=75-5x

Of course, but you and Ken (and I) are Math geeks. You see it, and you can explain it to a kid. But some kids have normal parents. ;) They don't see it and can't make this translation. So, if the Math teacher can't explain it during the lesson, the kids with normal parents won't understand it. That is a problem.

 

Rik

[gordontd]

It seems pretty clear that the majority view is that, whatever phrase should be used, hyphens do not belong in there.

I think they should only be there if they are used adjectivally. So I think "drink-driving programme" is correct.

[gwnn]

Of course, but you and Ken (and I) are Math geeks. You see it, and you can explain it to a kid. But some kids have normal parents. ;) They don't see it and can't make this translation. So, if the Math teacher can't explain it during the lesson, the kids with normal parents won't understand it. That is a problem.

 

Rik

He specifically said he doesn't know for sure. I know for sure and don't understand what's unclear about it. Independent variable just means the x axis and dependent variable means whatever depends on x. As far as I can tell, the origin of this nomenclature is a scientific experiment where we can vary x as much as we like (say, the temperature) so it is controlled by us and then y depends on x so it is dependent. In this case, we can imagine we make a long film of the nephew paying back the money every Sunday and we could fast-forward and rewind it at our will (or a bit more hypothetically, we have a time machine), so time is the independent variable and the debt is dependent thereon.