Big hand at pairs

[CamHenry]

[hv=pc=n&s=saqhajtdcakjt9542&n=sk76h953dak732c76&d=e&v=e&b=6&a=p2c(23%2B%20or%20GF)2h3d(Positive)p]266|200[/hv]

 

Double of the 2♥ overcall would have shown a negative; pass a semi-positive or balanced positive. The 3♦ bid shows a full positive response, with at least two of AKQ in the suit. How should the auction proceed? We found a decent result, but I'm wondering how other people get there.

[Zelandakh]

How should the auction proceed?

By requesting an undo - taking up a complete round of bidding to show ♦AKxxx in a balanced hand is sub-optimal.

[phoenix214]

4♣-4♠

5♦-7♣

One guess.

4 clubs sets clubs, 4 spades shows spade cue(pard already showed AK in diamonds, so no point cueing diamonds now)

5 diamonds, shows diamond cue(shortness) and interest in 7 - 7 clubs(well your hand does not get better then this)

[ahydra]

3D didn't show AK in diamonds, it showed two of AKQ. And generally one doesn't cue a void in partner's suit, as it's rarely a useful feature.

 

4C-4S seems a sensible start. 4NT might then be viable with South, even with a void, because he has all the other aces. After 5D-5NT-6H (DK+SK or HK) you can count thirteen tricks if North has the former, and only twelve but with several chances for a thirteenth if North has the HK (and hence DQ). So South bids 7C.

 

ahydra

[ggwhiz]

That red 2♥ overcall really smells of a club void and/or a heart void with rho. Or insanity with lho.

 

I don't like the 3♦ bid but would likely find 6nt after p - (then by us) 3♣ - 3♦ - 3♥ etc.

[wank]

4c-4s-keycard-1-kings?-diamonds-another try-spades too - 7nt

[phoenix214]

I know that you dont cue in partners suit, but how else do you expect to tell him that his AK of diamonds is golden while other is not. Maybe ace-asking there does the job done as well.

[nekthen]

At pairs do I really want to be in 7? The q♣ is a worry, there is also some risk of a ♥ ruff. Plus scores win in the long run. In 7 I'll get 10 or 90. In 6 it will be 45 to 60

[whereagles]

2♣ (2♥) 3♦

4♣ 4♠

6♣ pass

 

Too many "ifs" for 7. Even 6 might be in jeopardy if partner has say Kxx xxx KQJxx xx.

[Zelandakh]

At pairs do I really want to be in 7? The q♣ is a worry, there is also some risk of a ♥ ruff. Plus scores win in the long run. In 7 I'll get 10 or 90. In 6 it will be 45 to 60

Frequency of gain wins in the long run. That is not always the same thing as a plus score; otherwise we would not risk a contract for overtricks when a safety play was available. What do you think are the odds 7 makes given these 2 hands? What are the odds other pairs will be in slam? The issue here is one of practicality - what information can be found out. If it is unclear whether the grand is good then naturally one goes low - but that is a different matter from commenting about the "open hand" problem.

[CamHenry]

I agree with Zelandakh: the 3♦ bid did take up a lot of room. S rebid 4♣, not necessarily setting the suit but quite likely. After a pause, N bid 6♣ - on the basis that there was no way to find out about second-round heart control after this start. As S, I reasoned partner must have something useful - probably a heart void, or heart filler given LHO's predilection for vile overcalls. He must also have at least a doubleton club, meaning that anything other than Qxx offside was manageable. I therefore bid 7♣.

 

LHO led a diamond; I pitched a heart on the honour, then played a round of trumps (intending to cross back to dummy with the ♠K for a second heart pitch, then a club finesse, if trumps were 3-0).

 

 

It turns out LHO held Jxx/KQ8xx/QJT/Qx.

[MrAce]

What I learned from this topic is that when you open 2♣, they preempt, pd makes a positive respond, and when opener gets to bid his suit the first time, without a jump, this means he has a self sufficient suit and asking for cue. Tough life if god forbid opener does not hold a self sufficient suit and/or 2 suiters.

I think most of the replies were as biased as they could possibly be.

[MrAce]

I agree with Zelandakh: the 3♦ bid did take up a lot of room. S rebid 4♣, not necessarily setting the suit but quite likely.

 

Why is 4♣ supposed to be quite likely self sufficient, escapes me by a mile.

 

EDIT: Looking at his own hand, from N's point of view, S is quite likely to have very decent clubs if not solid. I get that. But how does S know that his pd knows this and takes all the bids as cue is a little slippery ground imo.

[dave_beer]

I know that you dont cue in partners suit, but how else do you expect to tell him that his AK of diamonds is golden while other is not. Maybe ace-asking there does the job done as well.

How is partner supposed to know that you have a ♦ void instead of ♦A if he has ♦KQ instead of ♦AH..?

[Jinksy]

What I learned from this topic is that when you open 2♣, they preempt, pd makes a positive respond, and when opener gets to bid his suit the first time, without a jump, this means he has a self sufficient suit and asking for cue. Tough life if god forbid opener does not hold a self sufficient suit and/or 2 suiters.

I think most of the replies were as biased as they could possibly be.

 

What else can it be? 3♦ must show 5, so in a pinch you could raise that with 3 or a good two. With a two-suiter, even with longer Ds, surely it would make sense to bid his major first?

[MrAce]

What else can it be? 3♦ must show 5, so in a pinch you could raise that with 3 or a good two. With a two-suiter, even with longer Ds, surely it would make sense to bid his major first?

 

What do you bid with AKQx AJx void AKJxxx ? (while even 5♣ may be too much, you maybe and probably cold for 7 spades if you have a fit in this suit but not in clubs)

 

-Just bid 3 NT and forget about mentioning that you have a 6 card suit?

-Or bid 4♣ and take everything pd bids as a cue?

-Or just bid 4♣ like normal people and do not make everything pd bids a "cue"?

 

This is all I am saying.

 

By the way, I do not think 4♥ by partner should show or promise anything in ♥ suit. It is just a cue to confirm clubs or later he may express another hand. And why would pd start with 2♠ when he holds hand with less than 5 spades or huge discrepancy between his suits like AKJxxx ♦ and Jxxxx ♠? Or is he supposed to make a forcing pass with 2 suiter and try to tell his tale after they raise hearts to some level and find himself in awkward position?

[mikeh]

4♣-4♠

5♦-7♣

One guess.

4 clubs sets clubs, 4 spades shows spade cue(pard already showed AK in diamonds, so no point cueing diamonds now)

5 diamonds, shows diamond cue(shortness) and interest in 7 - 7 clubs(well your hand does not get better then this)

Sorry but either you are allowing knowledge of the hand to distort your thinking, perhaps unconsciously, or you don't know how to bid.

 

No good player would play that 4♣ 'set clubs'. That would be absurd.

 

Give opener AQx A Qx AKJxxxx and responder either of xx xxx AKxxx Qxx or xxx xxx AKJxxx x

 

Would the bidding be different through 4♣?

 

On the first hand you want to play in 7♣ but on the second, 7♦.

 

No, the reason 4♣ set clubs, for you, was to allow 4♠ to be a cuebid by responder, rather than, say, bidding out his 4=2=5=2 shape, and (even more absurd) 5♦ to be a cue by opener showing a VOID!!!!! Wow.

 

The way to avoid this sort of thing, and it happens all the time on BBF with several posters, is to try to blank out one of the hands and imagine the auction as if you were holding the hand you haven't blanked out. Forget that responder has Kxx xxx AKxxx xx. Just imagine you'd opened 2♣, the auction proceeded to 4♠ and ask 'what would that mean if I couldn't see his hand'?

 

When asking that, ask if there are layouts where natural makes sense.

 

AKQx Ax x AKQxxx opposite Jxxx xx AKxxxx x

 

How does the auction start? How does it go at the 4-level? How do you find spades if 4♣ sets trump?

 

Timo nailed it, btw, and I upvoted his post.

[jgillispie]

[hv=pc=n&s=saqhajtdcakjt9542&n=sk76h953dak732c76&d=e&v=e&b=6&a=p2c(23%2B%20or%20GF)2h3d(Positive)p]266|200[/hv]

 

Double of the 2♥ overcall would have shown a negative; pass a semi-positive or balanced positive. The 3♦ bid shows a full positive response, with at least two of AKQ in the suit. How should the auction proceed? We found a decent result, but I'm wondering how other people get there.

 

I find this hand to fit the "balanced positive" and would have probably passed at the table.

 

So, out of curiosity, what does 3♥ by opener mean in this auction? Call me "results", but perhaps this cuebid is best purposed as an unspecified slam probe. You could then get an idea of what partner's whole hand is through some kind of relay auction.

 

That aside, I would probably continue with something along the lines of an "assumed fit" minorwood keycard auction:

4♣-4♦-

4♥-4♠-

4N-5♣-

7♣/N

 

4♣- RKC in ♣- a non-sufficient cannot bid 4♣ (it helps to know how this differs from the cue)

4♦- 1/4 (playing 1430)

4♥- Relay (Queen Ask, Spiral-like continuations)

4♠- No ♣Q; ♠K, possibly higher kings

4N- Relay (establishes a force to 6x, otherwise signoff)

5♣- ♦K, possibly higher jacks (here, signing off in 6♣ is no other feature)

 

This auction reveals that responder has something like:

♠ Kx(xx)

♥ xx(x) --> Possibly the ♥Q, but it doesn't seem necessary to ask for it

♦ AKxxx(x)

♣ X(xx) -> Surely he has at least one ;)

 

The case for 7N is that you need the clubs to play well regardless. 7N offers the lack of a ruff @ trick one. I wouldn't mind being in 6N, but 6♣ seems incorrect, unless you're in a casual club. So, 7♣ pr 7N it is. Have a whack at it ;)

[bdegrande]

I agree with Zelandakh: the 3♦ bid did take up a lot of room. S rebid 4♣, not necessarily setting the suit but quite likely. After a pause, N bid 6♣ - on the basis that there was no way to find out about second-round heart control after this start. As S, I reasoned partner must have something useful - probably a heart void, or heart filler given LHO's predilection for vile overcalls. He must also have at least a doubleton club, meaning that anything other than Qxx offside was manageable. I therefore bid 7♣.

 

LHO led a diamond; I pitched a heart on the honour, then played a round of trumps (intending to cross back to dummy with the ♠K for a second heart pitch, then a club finesse, if trumps were 3-0).

 

 

It turns out LHO held Jxx/KQ8xx/QJT/Qx.

 

That is a truly horrendous red overcall over a 2♣ bid, It could easily be going for 1400 or more vs. a white slam.

[wank]

What I learned from this topic is that when you open 2♣, they preempt, pd makes a positive respond, and when opener gets to bid his suit the first time, without a jump, this means he has a self sufficient suit and asking for cue. Tough life if god forbid opener does not hold a self sufficient suit and/or 2 suiters.

I think most of the replies were as biased as they could possibly be.

 

it rather depends what the rest of your system is. for example many people in my locality play 3S directly as 4S, longer diamonds, in which case 4S over 4C would have to be a cue. i believe this is also quite popular in forum land. no reason for it not to apply after 2H.

 

i rather agree with you about bidding 3 diamonds though. still, that wasn't part of our remit.

[Fluffy]

Sorry but either you are allowing knowledge of the hand to distort your thinking, perhaps unconsciously, or you don't know how to bid.

 

No good player would play that 4♣ 'set clubs'. That would be absurd.

 

Give opener AQx A Qx AKJxxxx and responder either of xx xxx AKxxx Qxx or xxx xxx AKJxxx x

 

Would the bidding be different through 4♣?

 

On the first hand you want to play in 7♣ but on the second, 7♦.

 

No, the reason 4♣ set clubs, for you, was to allow 4♠ to be a cuebid by responder, rather than, say, bidding out his 4=2=5=2 shape, and (even more absurd) 5♦ to be a cue by opener showing a VOID!!!!! Wow.

 

The way to avoid this sort of thing, and it happens all the time on BBF with several posters, is to try to blank out one of the hands and imagine the auction as if you were holding the hand you haven't blanked out. Forget that responder has Kxx xxx AKxxx xx. Just imagine you'd opened 2♣, the auction proceeded to 4♠ and ask 'what would that mean if I couldn't see his hand'?

 

When asking that, ask if there are layouts where natural makes sense.

 

AKQx Ax x AKQxxx opposite Jxxx xx AKxxxx x

 

How does the auction start? How does it go at the 4-level? How do you find spades if 4♣ sets trump?

 

Timo nailed it, btw, and I upvoted his post.

 

Although at first I though that 4♥ should be the bid as 4♠ is too risky, and might be taken as natural, I later realiced that 4♠ as natural makes very little sense (upong reading phoenix reply) and I mover towards the cuebid camp, still I understand that the "if a bid can be natural it is natural" rule is too strong, so some players will play 4♠ as nat, even if clearly not best on this particular situation. But I would not.

 

Phoenix might have nto elaborated his respone deeply, but you are taking his words the wrong way. As it is obvious for him (and everyone else) that 4♣is a very strong suggestion to use as trumps, but doesn't really set up trumps. How do I know this? because he did bid 4♠ over 4♣, if 4♣ showed self sufficent suit he would bid 4♦.

 

Now why is he loving the diamond void and getting to grand slam without heart control is not really great and is likely influenced b the knowledge of the full hand.

[MrAce]

Although at first I though that 4♥ should be the bid as 4♠ is too risky, and might be taken as natural, I later realiced that 4♠ as natural makes very little sense (upong reading phoenix reply) and I mover towards the cuebid camp, still I understand that the "if a bid can be natural it is natural" rule is too strong, so some players will play 4♠ as nat, even if clearly not best on this particular situation. But I would not.

 

Phoenix might have nto elaborated his respone deeply, but you are taking his words the wrong way. As it is obvious for him (and everyone else) that 4♣is a very strong suggestion to use as trumps, but doesn't really set up trumps. How do I know this? because he did bid 4♠ over 4♣, if 4♣ showed self sufficent suit he would bid 4♦.

 

Now why is he loving the diamond void and getting to grand slam without heart control is not really great and is likely influenced b the knowledge of the full hand.

 

Hmm......No! Not even close. Sorry m8.

 

4 clubs sets clubs, 4 spades shows spade cue(pard already showed AK in diamonds, so no point cueing diamonds now) 5 diamonds, shows diamond cue(shortness) and interest in 7 - 7 clubs(well your hand does not get better then this)

 

I don't know what is it between you and Mike that you feel obligated to disagree with him, but imho you should not let this affect your bridge judgement. Especially when it is about the basics of bidding. In fact, what Phoenix said makes much more sense than what you are trying to attribute to him.

 

Now back to what you are trying to attribute to him. If 4♣ is not self sufficient and/or setting trumps, then 4♦ or 4♠ by responder better be natural since you are burning all your bridges to find another fit. For example, responder may hold AKxxxxx cards ♦ suit and void or stiff ♣, I would think a sane person would rebid this suit (diamonds) since has has 2 cards extra than what he showed previously, even if he had A of spades to cue. By allowing 4♠ being a cue, you are not only disabling yourself from bidding spades naturally, but also disabling yourself from rebidding diamonds naturally. This is just unplayable unless one thinks that 4♣ sets the trumps. Which is pretty much unplayable in itself unless you play something like Wank suggested. And all of this for what? Like most people do, you do not want to use 4♥ bid just because you have xxx in this suit when it is the only cue available. You can and imho you should use 4♥ also for ambiguous hands like the one we have in hand, where we do not have a clear bid.

 

It is ironic that you mention use of 4♠ being natural is not good, while you seem to spare 4♥ for only specific purposes, which should be pretty flexible bid when auction got too high with no one being sure where our fit is, if any.

[MrAce]

As Joe Grue says, all of this mess, of course and once again, is caused by pd interfering with our 2♣ opening. Perhaps, we should try to avoid bidding positive diamonds over 2♣ when we are short in ♣ suit, which is likely that pd will bid them.

 

2♣--3♦

4♣

 

is an auction from hell ffs and should be avoided at all costs imho. You don't need preempting opponents if your system is forcing you to bid like this.

[mikeh]

it rather depends what the rest of your system is. for example many people in my locality play 3S directly as 4S, longer diamonds, in which case 4S over 4C would have to be a cue. i believe this is also quite popular in forum land. no reason for it not to apply after 2H.

 

i rather agree with you about bidding 3 diamonds though. still, that wasn't part of our remit.

You play that responder bids 3S to show spades with longer diamonds? First I've ever heard of and I hate it. I am well aware of the gadget where opener bids 3S over a 2d response with spades and longer diamonds and played it for a short time, but I've never heard of any pair intentionally preempting their own power auction as badly as that. Are you sure you meant this?

[Fluffy]

Hmm......No! Not even close. Sorry m8.

 

 

 

I don't know what is it between you and Mike that you feel obligated to disagree with him, but imho you should not let this affect your bridge judgement. Especially when it is about the basics of bidding. In fact, what Phoenix said makes much more sense than what you are trying to attribute to him.

 

Now back to what you are trying to attribute to him. If 4♣ is not self sufficient and/or setting trumps, then 4♦ or 4♠ by responder better be natural since you are burning all your bridges to find another fit. For example, responder may hold AKxxxxx cards ♦ suit and void or stiff ♣, I would think a sane person would rebid this suit (diamonds) since has has 2 cards extra than what he showed previously, even if he had A of spades to cue. By allowing 4♠ being a cue, you are not only disabling yourself from bidding spades naturally, but also disabling yourself from rebidding diamonds naturally. This is just unplayable unless one thinks that 4♣ sets the trumps. Which is pretty much unplayable in itself unless you play something like Wank suggested. And all of this for what? Like most people do, you do not want to use 4♥ bid just because you have xxx in this suit when it is the only cue available. You can and imho you should use 4♥ also for ambiguous hands like the one we have in hand, where we do not have a clear bid.

 

It is ironic that you mention use of 4♠ being natural is not good, while you seem to spare 4♥ for only specific purposes, which should be pretty flexible bid when auction got too high with no one being sure where our fit is, if any.

You are very wrong here, it is perfectly playable for bids that are impossible to be natural bids to be cuebids while possible natural bids to be natural. That's how I would play it on this sequence. Chances of a 4-4 playable spade fit are somewhere on the 3-5% camp, while a 6-2 or 7-2 diamond fit will be about 10 times more likely. I have found many similar situations with the same scheme: new suit at the 4 level is a ceubid agreeing last one, while a previously bid suit is natural proposing this strain rather.

 

About me and mikeh you are getting a wrong impression, we agree with each other on most topics, but Murphy's law makes you notice only the few times we disagree. At least in my case, I don't waste everyone's time by quoting him to say he is right, He is right by default, and there is little sense saying so. But here he was wrong, IMO he was very wrong on the starting line where he says on the BIL to a non usual poster that he is either biased or a bad player.