natural or scrambling?

[han]

How do you play the following auction:

 

1C-(2H)-pass-(pass)

Dbl-(pass)-2NT

 

Is this scrambling or does it show a heart stopper?

 

If natural, what strength would you expect?

[mike777]

Scramble

 

If 2nt makes, expect to beat 2h.

[the hog]

Scramble. Couldn't possibly have the values for a natural bid.

[pclayton]

Its really unusual: emphasis on diamonds with club tolerance.

 

Spades are bypassed, so it eliminates the need for a pure scramble.

 

2-3-5-3 feels about right.

[Terry_Gao]

Scrambling, of course!

Were this 2NT natural, he'd have bid 2NT immediately.

Were the first pass a trap, he'd have passed again.

If 2nt makes, expect to beat 2h.

It's right, but not sufficient I think. 'Cause sometimes 2♥X is less profitable than 3NT or even 2NT.

[Free]

scrambling

[Flame]

Does any of you really play this scrambling, or you just say its smart ? I would not expect partner to guess this, and we didnt discussed it just as we didnt discuss million other sequences.

Also i think there is some logic in playign this nat, partner can still hold 7 or even 8 hcp with K10xx of heart, if opener has 14 hcp 2nt is a good contract.

Not saying scambling isnt good just that i dont think i wouldnt guess it at the table, unless discussed first.

[inquiry]

Does any of you really play this scrambling, or you just say its smart ?

Scrambling, 100%.

 

If you have a true game invite hand, either bid 3NT or pass. however, there are a lot of hands where you are in trouble after partners double, and you don't know where to land safely. Using 2NT scrambling on these hands will save you time and time again, especially if you play with a partner who will reopen anytime he is short in hearts, even with an absolute minimum.

 

Ben

[Flame]

Does any of you really play this scrambling, or you just say its smart ?

Scrambling, 100%.

 

If you have a true game invite hand, either bid 3NT or pass. however, there are a lot of hands where you are in trouble after partners double, and you don't know where to land safely. Using 2NT scrambling on these hands will save you time and time again, especially if you play with a partner who will reopen anytime he is short in hearts, even with an absolute minimum.

 

Ben

Im not saying nat is better then scrabling , im only saying the idea of my partner and i sitting at the table each one trying to think what make more sense scrambling or natural, and hoping partner will think the same is imo not the right way. I prefer to have specific guidlines, and for me when we didnt discuss a bid it is a natual if possible. thats why i say there is a big different between what right and what i would think at the table.

[whereagles]

Can be scramble or lebenshol. Which one applies now I don't remember... gotta check Robson.

[han]

I also thought that the situation was clear, but my partner did not. I'm trying to come up with a good rule for when scrambling applies:

 

If I have passed after the oppopnents bid at the two level and later bid 2NT over their 2H or 2S, then this is scrambling.

 

Some clear examples:

 

(1S)-p-(2S)-p

(p)- Dbl-(p)-2NT

 

Clearly a 2-suiter, most likely the minors.

 

1NT-(2D*)-p-(2H)

p-(2S)-2NT

 

Should show a two suiter again. With game interest, either double or bid the first time.

 

Is this a good rule?

[Flame]

Both your examples are classic cases but the resson they are classic isnt your rule, the resson his we cant have a game, on the initial problem we could have a game if partner is strong.

[han]

Scramble. Couldn't possibly have the values for a natural bid.

Why not?

 

I actually had something like xx Axxx KJx xxxx. Since we almost never open 1D with a balanced hand, I really didn't want to bid 3C, so I bid a scrambling 2NT. Partner had a big balanced hand without a stopper and raised to 3NT, lucky us.

 

But clearly, I can have an 8-count with a good heart stopper here. Passing at IMPs is not an option.

[han]

Both your examples are classic cases but the resson they are classic isnt your rule, the resson his we cant have a game, on the initial problem we could have a game if partner is strong.

I know, you are right of course.

 

But I tried to write a rule that includes these clear examples as well as the auction we had at the table.

[pclayton]

Scramble. Couldn't possibly have the values for a natural bid.

Why not?

 

I actually had something like xx Axxx KJx xxxx. Since we almost never open 1D with a balanced hand, I really didn't want to bid 3C, so I bid a scrambling 2NT. Partner had a big balanced hand without a stopper and raised to 3NT, lucky us.

 

But clearly, I can have an 8-count with a good heart stopper here. Passing at IMPs is not an option.

I wouldn't scramble with a pattern like this. What if he chooses diamonds?

 

A heavy preference to 3♣ looks fine, but I would have bid 3♣ direct the first time.

 

Your posting is a good advertisement for playing 2N as some kind of good / bad, instead of scrambling.

[Flame]

I also dont like scrambling when the the other suit is shorter then partner suit, it should be vs versa.

Maybe 2nt can be played as a non forcing scrambling, just show hand with too good potential to pass but no clear bid, doesnt show stoper but partner can pass it if he has a bal hand, it might be least evil playing 2nt undoubled.

[the hog]

Scramble. Couldn't possibly have the values for a natural bid.

Why not?

 

I actually had something like xx Axxx KJx xxxx. Since we almost never open 1D with a balanced hand, I really didn't want to bid 3C, so I bid a scrambling 2NT. Partner had a big balanced hand without a stopper and raised to 3NT, lucky us.

 

But clearly, I can have an 8-count with a good heart stopper here. Passing at IMPs is not an option.

Hannie, an 8 count with one measly H stopper and you contract for 2NT?!

Your partner has promised no more than an opening bid with shortage in the overcalled suit. From where are your 8 tricks hoing to come?

[mike777]

Hannie:

If 2nt makes do you not expect to beat 2h? If 3nt makes do you not expect to beat 2h? Assume p has 4135 and opening hand.

[han]

Scramble. Couldn't possibly have the values for a natural bid.

Why not?

 

I actually had something like xx Axxx KJx xxxx. Since we almost never open 1D with a balanced hand, I really didn't want to bid 3C, so I bid a scrambling 2NT. Partner had a big balanced hand without a stopper and raised to 3NT, lucky us.

 

But clearly, I can have an 8-count with a good heart stopper here. Passing at IMPs is not an option.

Hannie, an 8 count with one measly H stopper and you contract for 2NT?!

Your partner has promised no more than an opening bid with shortage in the overcalled suit. From where are your 8 tricks hoing to come?

Hahaha, I didn't contract for 2NT, I thought it was scrambling!

 

I do get your point though, and I agree. What do you think about the rule I suggested? Or do you think that these auctions should be clear without discussion?

[the hog]

Here is what we play:

 

Bid scramble 2NT when:

You have a weak hand without 4 Major

You have a weak hand with 5H, (over a 2â™  opening)

You have a GF hand with 4 Major and no stopper

You have a GF hand with 4 Major and a stopper

 

(2â™ ) X (P) 2NT

 

2NT= asks partner to pick a minor. Then

 

Pass / 3D / 3♥ = weak, no game interest

3♠ =FG, 4♥, no STOP.

3NT = FG, 4♥, STOP.

 

 

Over (2â™  = nat) X = TO. Then:

 

3♣ = to play (wide range, since can’t bid 2NT with just C suit)

3D / 3♥ = some game interest, invitational

3♠ =FG, not 4♥, no STOP.

3NT = FG, not 4♥, STOP.

 

Likewise over (2♥ = nat) X.

[flytoox]

Scrambling, of course!

Were this 2NT natural, he'd have bid 2NT immediately.

Were the first pass a trap, he'd have passed again.

If 2nt makes, expect to beat 2h.

It's right, but not sufficient I think. 'Cause sometimes 2♥X is less profitable than 3NT or even 2NT.

Good argument. Those believe this 2N is natural should ask themselve what immediate 2N should be.

[Flame]

Scrambling, of course!

Were this 2NT natural, he'd have bid 2NT immediately.

Were the first pass a trap, he'd have passed again.

If 2nt makes, expect to beat 2h.

It's right, but not sufficient I think. 'Cause sometimes 2♥X is less profitable than 3NT or even 2NT.

Good argument. Those believe this 2N is natural should ask themselve what immediate 2N should be.

Also when things go wrong 2H makes is much worse then 2nt-1.

[Winstonm]

This is a really good question and brings up the point that to be a truly effective partnership means to define, define, and define some more.

 

First, I ask myself could this be natural? I could see that it could be - not so much as to suggest a contract but as a "least of all evils" bid. What would partner do if he picked up: xxx, KQxx, Jxxx, xx and we had this auction? Maybe 2N will only go down 1.

 

Or could it mean a middling hand not good enough for an immediate 2N and without enough defense to pass, such as: xxx, Q10x, KJxx, Kxx?

 

I would need 2N naturally with these two types of hands it seems.

 

What could I do with scrambling hands?

 

I could 1) support clubs with 4 of them. 2) Bid a 5-card diamond suit. Only with 4 diamonds and 3 clubs would I need to scramble, but then I'd also have to hold 4 or 5 hearts else I could bid 2S. I believe in this case it is right to follow the advice of Eddie Kantar that when they preempt, partner did not open a short minor, so it is right to go ahead and bid 3 clubs on the 3 bagger....if we get doubled, then I can redouble as my scramble.

 

I am inclined then to use this as natural, but with an untried partner I would surely as opener rebid 3C with 5 of them just in case.

 

:)