Bid this hand

[Michael000]

[hv=pc=n&s=sahak72dqt84cat98]133|100[/hv]

 

North opens 1♠ how would you respond with this hand, why and what next?

 

This was my hand opposite a unknown partner in the BBO Acol Bridge club. I understand that most of you do not play Acol. There are no tricks questions here, I am posting this solely to get an insight into the thought processes of others.

[Fluffy]

no matter the system you start with 2♣ and continue from there.

[mikeh]

Any bets that we'll be told that with this many hcp we have to make a strong jump shift?

[Michael000]

Any bets that we'll be told that with this many hcp we have to make a strong jump shift?

 

OK - Here's my £20 where's yours? . . . . . Are you stalking me?

[diana_eva]

As fluffy posted, make a 2/1 forcing bid (2♣) and take it from there.

[Michael000]

OK here we go. . . .

 

What do I know?

 

I know partner has at least 12hcp and less than 19hcp. I know she has either 4 very good spades or more likely (as I hold a singleton) 5 or 6 spades. I know I have 17hcp. I know that we don't have a fit in spades. I also know that if we have a joint hcp count in excess of 30hcp we have a possible slam. These are the things I know.

 

I have a choice of bids none of which is spades. I am concerned not to miss a possible slam (am I wrong). What is the best bid and WHY? What is the plan to identify whether we have slam points/shape?

[helene_t]

2♣ is clear, if only because every other bid would misdescribe the hand.

 

If partner now rebids a non-forcing 2♠, probably 3NT is enough. But if he raises clubs, or rebids a red suit, or makes some strong rebid, slam could very easily be on.

 

What did partner respond to 2♣? The next bid may be more difficult.

[PhilKing]

2 CLUBS!

 

This is called bidding our suits up the line, as fully endorsed in "Modern ACOL". Hopefully, partner will make an ACOL rebid that helps us diagnose whether a slam is on, and in which strain.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Either that or bid a direct Gerber. :blink:

[mike777]

2c per this site it looks like.

It looks like a jump shift needs 5+ or support but 2c is normally 5+ but not 100%

Not sure what rebid will be perhaps 3nt or 4nt quant?

 

Responses to 1 of a suit[edit]

Pass - less than 6 HCP

2 of opener's suit - at least four-card support and 6-9 HCP. Limit bid.

3 of opener's suit - at least four-card support and 10-12 HCP. Invites game if opener has requisite strength (14 HCP or more). Limit bid.

4 of opener's suit - at least five-card support for opener's major and 6-10 HCP, this is pre-emptive and to play.

1NT - 6-9 HCP, denies ability to bid at 2 level. Not necessarily balanced. Limit bid.

2NT - balanced, 10-12 HCP. Limit bid.

3NT - balanced, 13-15 HCP. Limit bid.

1 of a new suit - promises at least four cards in the suit bid, 6 HCP upwards. Forcing for one round.

2 of a new suit (below 2 of opener's suit) - normally 5-card suit, at least a good 8 or 9 HCP. Forcing for one round

Jump in a new suit - 5-card suit (or support for partner), at least 16 HCP, Game force.

 

note: these last three bids may conceal 4-card support for opener's suit, whereas the three NT responses deny 4-card support for opener, and also normally deny holding a 4 card major biddable at the 1 level

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acol

[scarletv]

[hv=bbo=y&lin=pn|S,W,N,E|st%7C%7Cmd%7C1S27TQKH9DJKAC2346%2CS4689JH35TJQD57C5%2CSAH27KAD48TQC89TA%2C%7Crh%7C%7Cah%7CBoard%2019%7Csv%7Ce%7Cmb%7C1S%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C2H%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C2S%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C3D%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C3N%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cpc%7CH5%7Cpc%7CHK%7Cpc%7CH4%7Cpc%7CH9%7Cpc%7CSA%7Cpc%7CS3%7Cpc%7CS2%7Cpc%7CS4%7Cpc%7CD4%7Cpc%7CD2%7Cpc%7CDA%7Cpc%7CD5%7Cpc%7CDK%7Cpc%7CD7%7Cpc%7CD8%7Cpc%7CD3%7Cpc%7CDJ%7Cpc%7CC5%7Cpc%7CDT%7Cpc%7CD6%7Cpc%7CSK%7Cpc%7CS6%7Cpc%7CH2%7Cpc%7CS5%7Cpc%7CSQ%7Cpc%7CS8%7Cpc%7CH7%7Cpc%7CD9%7Cpc%7CC2%7Cpc%7CH3%7Cpc%7CCA%7Cpc%7CC7%7Cpc%7CHA%7Cpc%7CH8%7Cpc%7CC3%7Cpc%7CHQ%7Cpc%7CDQ%7Cpc%7CH6%7Cpc%7CC4%7Cpc%7CHT%7Cpc%7CCT%7Cpc%7CCK%7Cpc%7CC6%7Cpc%7CS9%7Cpc%7CCJ%7Cpc%7CS7%7Cpc%7CHJ%7Cpc%7CC9%7Cpc%7CCQ%7Cpc%7CST%7Cpc%7CSJ%7Cpc%7CC8%7C]399|300[/hv]

[mikeh]

[hv=bbo=y&lin=pn|S,W,N,E|st%7C%7Cmd%7C1S27TQKH9DJKAC2346%2CS4689JH35TJQD57C5%2CSAH27KAD48TQC89TA%2C%7Crh%7C%7Cah%7CBoard%2019%7Csv%7Ce%7Cmb%7C1S%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C2H%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C2S%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C3D%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C3N%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cpc%7CH5%7Cpc%7CHK%7Cpc%7CH4%7Cpc%7CH9%7Cpc%7CSA%7Cpc%7CS3%7Cpc%7CS2%7Cpc%7CS4%7Cpc%7CD4%7Cpc%7CD2%7Cpc%7CDA%7Cpc%7CD5%7Cpc%7CDK%7Cpc%7CD7%7Cpc%7CD8%7Cpc%7CD3%7Cpc%7CDJ%7Cpc%7CC5%7Cpc%7CDT%7Cpc%7CD6%7Cpc%7CSK%7Cpc%7CS6%7Cpc%7CH2%7Cpc%7CS5%7Cpc%7CSQ%7Cpc%7CS8%7Cpc%7CH7%7Cpc%7CD9%7Cpc%7CC2%7Cpc%7CH3%7Cpc%7CCA%7Cpc%7CC7%7Cpc%7CHA%7Cpc%7CH8%7Cpc%7CC3%7Cpc%7CHQ%7Cpc%7CDQ%7Cpc%7CH6%7Cpc%7CC4%7Cpc%7CHTif this is the hand, then %7Cpc%7CCT%7Cpc%7CCK%7Cpc%7CC6%7Cpc%7CS9%7Cpc%7CCJ%7Cpc%7CS7%7Cpc%7CHJ%7Cpc%7CC9%7Cpc%7CCQ%7Cpc%7CST%7Cpc%7CSJ%7Cpc%7CC8%7C]399|300[/hv]

If this is the hand, then the key is to avoid a high-level club contract

 

I think it to be generally accepted even in Modern ACOL that a 2H response should deliver 5 cards. As Phil says, the correct response in ACOL is 2C

 

I think an intelligent auction thereafter is:

 

1S. 2C

3C. 3H

3N. 4N

P

 

 

3H was an exploratory call, showing either interest in 3N or a cue bid exploring for a club contract

 

3N is clear, since the principle of 'game before slam' is a universal principle of good bidding, no matter the system, other than purely artificial methods

 

Aware that opener has spade and diamond values, and with a poor club suit, responder isn't in a position to commit to clubs, but has too many values to pass 3N so makes a simple, quantitative invite with a natural 4N. I appreciate that many inexperienced players think that. 4N. Is usually, if not always, ace asking or keycard, but one of huge most common exceptions is a raise of a natural 3N to 4N. This is, in the absence of special agreement, virtually always played by good players as quantitative.

[the hog]

2C of course.Mike's continuation makes sense. What else?

 

Two other points

1) What would you open on Jxxxx AKQ AKQJ x

You open a strong 2 in S? With this S suit? Even a Benjy 2 is poor. 2C? This is not a gf! 2NT? Even worse. This is a 20 count. Every Acolite I know would open this 1S.

 

2) You STILL, (and this is the third time I am asking), have not explained how you will stay out of slam without using cue bids or asking bids with the following:

 

AQxxx

QJx

xxx

Axx

 

and bid it with

 

AQxxx

Kxx

xxx

Axx

 

opposite:

 

KJxx

xx

AKQJx

Kx

[Trinidad]

I have a dissenting opinion on this.

 

What do we want to find out more than anything? We are eager to know whether partner has four hearts. We are playing opposite an unknown partner. We need to maximize the probability of him showing them when he has them.

 

Now suppose partner has a 5=4=4=0 or a 5=4=0=4 distribution. What will he bid? Some would bid 2♥ after our 2♣ response. But many would bid 2♦ up the line with the 5=4=4=0 (which means that our subsequent 2♥ rebid will be 4th suit, complicating matters) or raise clubs with the 5=4=0=4.

 

If, instead of responding 2♣, I respond 2♦, then opener might still raise, now with the 5=4=4=0 distribution. Because of my honor structure in the minors, a diamond raise with club shortness suits me better than a club raise with diamond shortness. So that is already a slight improvement over a 2♣ response. But if he has the 5=4=0=4 hand, he wouldn't even think of introducing his clubs. He would rebid 2♥ and I have achieved my goal. That is a big improvement over the 2♣ response.

 

So, I would respond 2♦.

 

Rik

[mikeh]

I have a dissenting opinion on this.

 

What do we want to find out more than anything? We are eager to know whether partner has four hearts. We are playing opposite an unknown partner. We need to maximize the probability of him showing them when he has them.

 

Now suppose partner has a 5=4=4=0 or a 5=4=0=4 distribution. What will he bid? Some would bid 2♥ after our 2♣ response. But many would bid 2♦ up the line with the 5=4=4=0 (which means that our subsequent 2♥ rebid will be 4th suit, complicating matters) or raise clubs with the 5=4=0=4.

 

If, instead of responding 2♣, I respond 2♦, then opener might still raise, now with the 5=4=4=0 distribution. Because of my honor structure in the minors, a diamond raise with club shortness suits me better than a club raise with diamond shortness. So that is already a slight improvement over a 2♣ response. But if he has the 5=4=0=4 hand, he wouldn't even think of introducing his clubs. He would rebid 2♥ and I have achieved my goal. That is a big improvement over the 2♣ response.

 

So, I would respond 2♦.

 

Rik

I don't agree with you at all. I do not think that any good player would bid 2D with 5440. That strikes me as an automatic 2H rebid, especially in a method in which the 2/1 response was not a gf. The partnership needs 4SF so responser's 2H is not natural, which makes confirming a 4=4 fit impossible below game, which cannot be playable when responder is unlimited.

[Michael000]

 

2) You STILL, (and this is the third time I am asking), have not explained how you will stay out of slam without using cue bids or asking bids with the following:

 

I am avoiding bidding your hand because I don't want to derail the thread. If you want to start a thread with your hand I would very much like to bid it and for my education and your amusement have my bidding analysed and dissected by all and sundry.

[Michael000]

Post 10 shows the hands in full. Half the pairs playing this hand ended up in 6NT and half in 3NT. Nobody made 6NT. It's easy looking at all the hands. The question I wanted to explore in posting this thread was how you (I mean you) pursue interest in a slam, b that I mean you must have some mechanism for alerting partner to your strength and more importantly exiting before you are up too high.

 

I consensus appears to be 2♣ and with sight of the hand and actual bidding it seems reasonable that partner would have bid 2♦ and I am then very comfortable with a jump shift bid of 3♥ showing strength. And, it's simple then seeing all the hands to pass out at 3NT. Clearly as half the field (not us) ended up in 6NT they thought they had values which encouraged them to go down that route.

[Michael000]

And let me explain the rationale behind my bidding.

 

We are playing 4cm and there is a possibility that not bidding the hearts would be seen by partner as denying a 4cm. Also in biding 2♥ it gave partner the opportunity of bidding 2NT showing 16HCP and I would then have gone looking for slam confident that we had slam points. Re-bidding her spades showed a minimum of 5 spades but also denied any strength hence my exit to 3NT. The problem with my bidding is that if she had held 15HCP there may have been a slam on and my (our) bidding may not have been good enough to find it. Hence this post.

[eagles123]

the problem with bidding 2h is that it should promise 5 and so partner will raise u on 3. Why play in an unnecessary mosain when bidding 2c would discover the potential H fit anyway??

[wank]

 

 

there is a possibility that not bidding the hearts would be seen by partner as denying a 4cm.

 

no more than the possibility that 2C would be seen as showing 7 diamonds.

 

this really isn't advanced bidding at all. everyone plays 2h as 5+ and knows that 2C might contain a heart suit. prepare to be shocked, but with a 3433 shape, the correct response would still be 2C on a 3 card suit, because it's better to give a false impression about minors than majors.

 

i don't want to be harsh, and you may be a decent card player, but playing in your club has given you a warped perspective of your knowledge about the game. if you played in an EBU tournament or even a decent sized county event, you would find yourself getting carted out.

[PhilKing]

To me, the correct Acol auction is. 1♠-2♣-3♣-3NT. You can't really do that in most other systems, and the key is that 3♣ is non-forcing showing a minimum.

 

Slam could be reasonable, but is not laydown even opposite:

 

♠KQxxx

♥xx

♦Ax

♣KQxx

 

where you need both black suits to behave to have 12 on top. With extras partner should splinter, since even Acol plays a new suit as forcing by opener after a 2-over-1.

[mikeh]

I recently learned of a practice known as sea-lioning. The OP is exhibiting many of the characteristics of a 'sea lion'. Note how he never comments directly on the advice he is given. note how he remains apparently polite yet persists in ignoring cogent responses to him. His answers to the Hog, arising from another thread, seems to be classic. I am going to double the size of my ignore list now. A sea lion appears to be a form of troll.

 

If in doubt: go to one of my favourite blogs: pharyngula. Yesterday had a post that introduced me to the concept.

[sfi]

The meme may be new (and I found a very amusing cartoon describing it) but it's an old technique. The tactic was perfected by the tobacco companies and has since been co-opted for any number of other retrograde causes since then.

 

Edit: I found the same cartoon on a different site. Still amusing the second time.

Edited January 2, 2015 by sfi

[the hog]

Michael000, I hate t tell you but in Acol, and virtually every system I know of, 1S 2H definitely shows a 5 card suit.

 

Rik, bidding 2D is a clear error. 2H is the correct reponse with 5440. Even if someone errs in bidding 2D you can till find the H fit

 

1S 2C

2D 2H

3H

 

Shows a 5440.

[Michael000]

I recently learned of a practice known as sea-lioning.

 

You need to get a life B-)

[Michael000]

Michael000, I hate t tell you but in Acol, and virtually every system I know of, 1S 2H definitely shows a 5 card suit.

 

That's OK Hog, you don't need to apologies for giving me your opinion, while else would I ask the question if I didn't want the hear the opinion of others!

 

Yes I know 1♠ 2♥ ideally promises 5 hearts but again ordinarily 1♠ 2♣ would promises some sort of cover in clubs above six high! If every hands always delivered easy bidding options it would be a very boring game. It is (in my very humble opinion) often a difficult choice and I then ask myself the question "what will give partner the best / most valuable information but seemingly I have a lot to learn!