eagles123 Posted December 30, 2014 Report Share Posted December 30, 2014 MP we non vul they vul first seat xxxKJTxKJTxxx thx, Eagles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted December 30, 2014 Report Share Posted December 30, 2014 3♣ if you are playing with a partner who will not punish you for a preempt on these cards. My agreements prevent me from opening 3♣ on these cards. Perhaps that is a good thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ggwhiz Posted December 30, 2014 Report Share Posted December 30, 2014 3♣ Many more good things than bad can happen with the stolen bidding room like a double by lho on 4-3 in the majors and rho bidding hearts on 4-4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinksy Posted December 30, 2014 Report Share Posted December 30, 2014 3♣ wtp? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagles123 Posted December 30, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 30, 2014 ok so say you do bid 3c (I did) is there any sensible way to bid to slam? [hv=pc=n&s=s4hj3dkjt5ckjt765&n=s653hakqdaq97ca84&d=s&v=e&b=3&a=3cp]266|200[/hv] thanks, Eagles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted December 31, 2014 Report Share Posted December 31, 2014 6♣? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kuhchung Posted December 31, 2014 Report Share Posted December 31, 2014 no way to reach 6 and it's about breakeven anyway as north i would be more worried about making 5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted December 31, 2014 Report Share Posted December 31, 2014 forget slam. there's no way to be precise after a pree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted December 31, 2014 Report Share Posted December 31, 2014 Had Sth passed getting to 6D would be quite easy. Ths shows one of the disadvantages of making this type of pre empt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinidad Posted December 31, 2014 Report Share Posted December 31, 2014 Had Sth passed getting to 6D would be quite easy. Ths shows one of the disadvantages of making this type of pre empt.Exactly. Great comment. I fully agree. The damage that you are inflicting on your partner may be devastating. And if you apply simple arithmetic you will conclude that you have twice as many opponents as partners. The real math is a little more complex, but it is fully justified to say that what you so imminently correctly, as ever, describe as a disadvantage of the preemptive action will -on balance- be an advantage more often than a disadvantage because then one of your two opponents (or both) will be facing the problem instead of your lonely partner. Write me up for a WTP 3♣, and, no, I would not have gotten to slam. Next board, please (where my opponents will be suffering from my preempts). Rik 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnu Posted December 31, 2014 Report Share Posted December 31, 2014 no way to reach 6 and it's about breakeven anyway A big favorite without a spade lead 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnu Posted December 31, 2014 Report Share Posted December 31, 2014 Had Sth passed getting to 6D would be quite easy. Ths shows one of the disadvantages of making this type of pre empt. Did post #5 get edited? You still need to pick up clubs in 6♦ after a spade lead to make in which case 6♣ also makes (except 4 clubs with west which lets east get a club ruff in 6♦). 4-1 diamonds means you could go down several tricks in 6♦ if you have to lose a trick in clubs. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WesleyC Posted December 31, 2014 Report Share Posted December 31, 2014 The 3♣ opening looks obvious as South because giving up your own bidding accuracy to damage the opponents auction @ 1st/Fav is a winning plan. However at Matchpoints, I would advance the 3C opening with 3D simply because I don't want to commit to 5m on a hand where 3NT might score 630+. On this hand that might have the unplanned side effect of helping you reach 6m. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted December 31, 2014 Report Share Posted December 31, 2014 I think a 1st seat 3♣ is obvious. The risk of torpedoing your own bidding as compared to opponents is 1-to-2. That's good odds for me, especially given our very short majors. In 2nd seat it's not so obvious, as the jam chance is now 50/50, but I would still do it in most cases. Wesley's MP considerations are also important. I think he's quite right not bypassing 3NT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted December 31, 2014 Report Share Posted December 31, 2014 Slam is very good on a non-spade lead and about 50% on a spade lead. Anyone who has a way to ask for a spade control? We play a direct 4♦ as kickback but maybe 3♦ (if artificial) followed by 4♦ should ask for controls? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fourdad Posted December 31, 2014 Report Share Posted December 31, 2014 3!c...no hesitation and no slam and no problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Marlowe Posted December 31, 2014 Report Share Posted December 31, 2014 Hi,facing th3 3C prempt, counting tricks will tell you, that you will have 12 tricks 50% of the time, 7 clubs, 3H, 2D, and I guess it could becold, but 11 may be the limit, so you should make a move, ..., but are not strong to force. I guess 3D is your best bid, although the raise by opener does not promise more than3+ support, over 4D getting to 6? is still tough. With kind regardsMarlowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nige1 Posted December 31, 2014 Report Share Posted December 31, 2014 [hv=pc=n&s=s4hj3dkjt5ckjt765&n=s653hakqdaq97ca84&d=s&v=e&b=3&a=3cp]266|200|ok so say you do bid 3c (I did) is there any sensible way to bid to slam?[/hv] IMO Opening bid 3♣ = 10, Pass = 9, 1♣ = 8. Now, there is a conventional way of finding out about ♠ control: Over a pre-empt, it makes sense to use suit bids below 3N as asking bids, to find out about a stop or support or control. Here for example, after 3♣ - 3♠, Opener might rebid as follows3N = ♠ stop e.g. ♠QJx4♣ = (Pre-empt suit) ♠ Shortage. i.e. Singleton or void ♠. Like eagle's hand.4♦ = ♠ Tolerance. 2 ♠. Poor hand. e.g. ♠ x x ♥ x x x ♦ x ♠ Q J x x x x x 4♥ = ♠ Enthusiasm. 3+ ♠ e.g. ♠ J x x ♥ x ♦ x x ♣ A J x x x x x4♠ = ♠ Support. 3+ ♠. Poor hand. ♠ x x x ♥ x ♦ x x ♣ K J x x x x x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daffydoc Posted December 31, 2014 Report Share Posted December 31, 2014 standard to me for past 50 years is that a jump over a preempt asks for controls in the jumped suit 1st step 0 second step 2nd and 3rd step 1st round control. so 4S over 3c asks and bidding slam is easy. could likely not do this undiscussed as many likely not aware - but is very useful as a pre over a pre is not at all useful. daffy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted December 31, 2014 Report Share Posted December 31, 2014 IMO Opening bid 3♣ = 10, Pass = 9, 1♣ = 8. Now, there is a conventional way of finding out about ♠ control: Over a pre-empt, it makes sense to use suit bids below 3N as asking bids, to find out about a stop or support or control. Here for example, after 3♣ - 3♠, Opener might rebid as follows3N = ♠ stop e.g. ♠QJx4♣ = (Pre-empt suit) ♠ Shortage. i.e. Singleton or void ♠. Like eagle's hand.4♦ = ♠ Tolerance. 2 ♠. Poor hand. e.g. ♠ x x ♥ x x x ♦ x ♠ Q J x x x x x 4♥ = ♠ Enthusiasm. 3+ ♠ e.g. ♠ J x x ♥ x ♦ x x ♣ A J x x x x x4♠ = ♠ Support. 3+ ♠. Poor hand. ♠ x x x ♥ x ♦ x x ♣ K J x x x x x I have finally worked out Nige's scoring system. It is the system that is often used to score boxing matches - the 10 point must system. As I understand it, in the 10 point must system both boxers start out with 10 points in a round. If one of the boxers wins the round, the score for the round would be 10-9. If one of the boxers really destroys the other (but not a KO), the score for the round would be 10-8. The reason I worked this out is that Nige awarded 8 points to a 1♣ opening bid on this hand. Since I consider a 1♣ opening on this hand to be truly horrific, he must be using the 10 point must system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nige1 Posted December 31, 2014 Report Share Posted December 31, 2014 I have finally worked out Nige's scoring system. It is the system that is often used to score boxing matches - the 10 point must system. As I understand it, in the 10 point must system both boxers start out with 10 points in a round. If one of the boxers wins the round, the score for the round would be 10-9. If one of the boxers really destroys the other (but not a KO), the score for the round would be 10-8. The reason I worked this out is that Nige awarded 8 points to a 1♣ opening bid on this hand. Since I consider a 1♣ opening on this hand to be truly horrific, he must be using the 10 point must system. Eagle123's hand is ♠ 4 ♥ J 3 ♦ K J T 5 ♣ K J T 7 6 5. No bid is ideal. I would open 3♣. Pass might work. 1♣ is quite reasonable, however -- a rule of 19 hand with reinforcing honours in the long suits and a couple of tens to spare. I guess some players would regard 1♣ as automatic and it might well work, in practice. When I post a bidding question, I often fear that I took the wrong action and I want to know how bad others judge it to be. A marking-system is an attempt to provide that kind of feedback. For example ...10 for the action you'd choose5-9 for other actions that you consider might work.0-4 for actions that you don't think would work. I would regard it as hubris for an ordinary player like me to award zero to an action that I know has been chosen by some experts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted December 31, 2014 Report Share Posted December 31, 2014 Eagle123's hand is ♠ 4 ♥ J 3 ♦ K J T 5 ♣ K J T 7 6 5. No bid is ideal. I would open 3♣. Pass might work. 1♣ is quite reasonable, however -- a rule of 19 hand with reinforcing honours in the long suits and a couple of tens to spare. I guess some players would regard 1♣ as automatic and it might well work, in practice. When I post a bidding question, I often fear that I did the wrong thing and I want to know how bad others judge it to be. A marking-system is an attempt to provide that kind of feedback. For example ...10 for the action you'd choose5-9 for other actions that you consider might work.0-4 for actions that you don't think would work. I would regard it as hubris for an ordinary player like me to award zero to an action that I know has been chosen by some experts.Rule of 19! The rule of 20 is bad enough. Now we are down to 19! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daffydoc Posted December 31, 2014 Report Share Posted December 31, 2014 IMO to use a suit bid as anything but natural and forcing just complicates things. So a jump which has no natural meaning should be used as an asking bid for controls. daffydoc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nige1 Posted January 1, 2015 Report Share Posted January 1, 2015 Rule of 19! The rule of 20 is bad enough. Now we are down to 19 Shock! Horror!! The criterion for some modern partnerships is "Rule of 18" !!! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted January 1, 2015 Report Share Posted January 1, 2015 Eagle123's hand is ♠ 4 ♥ J 3 ♦ K J T 5 ♣ K J T 7 6 5. No bid is ideal. I would open 3♣. Pass might work. 1♣ is quite reasonable, however -- a rule of 19 hand with reinforcing honours in the long suits and a couple of tens to spare. I guess some players would regard 1♣ as automatic and it might well work, in practice. When I post a bidding question, I often fear that I took the wrong action and I want to know how bad others judge it to be. A marking-system is an attempt to provide that kind of feedback. For example ...10 for the action you'd choose5-9 for other actions that you consider might work.0-4 for actions that you don't think would work. I would regard it as hubris for an ordinary player like me to award zero to an action that I know has been chosen by some experts. Which expert would open 1C? I would award 1C a big fat zero. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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