ATB slam

[antonylee]

MPs.

[hv=pc=n&s=saqt92hq7daqcak63&n=sj84ha643d762cqt2&d=s&v=0&b=11&a=2c(!)p2d(waiting)p2sp3sp4cp4hp4n(!)p5c(!)p6sppp]266|200[/hv]

[mgoetze]

South has an absolute minimum GF and drove to slam all on his own. If you're not playing some kind of Serious or Non-Serious 3NT (which you really should), South absolutely needs to bid 4♠ in response to 3♠.

 

Honestly, I don't understand why this is posted as an ATB. What could North possibly do any differently? I see no plausible alternative to any of North's bids.

[mike777]

south for starters does not have a 2c bid with a 5 loser hand.

 

 

imagine if the bidding starts out:

 

 

1s=1nt

3c=4s

[rmnka447]

South pushed way too much by bidding 6 ♠.

 

After 4 NT RKCB, North answered 5 ♣ -- presumably 1 key card.

 

If the key card is the ♠ K, then North holds either the ♥ K or a ♥ singleton. That would leave the partnership with 1 sure ♥ loser. Then South has to find cover cards in North's hand for potential losers in ♣ and ♦.

 

If the key card is the ♥ A, then South still has a potential ♥ loser and must find the ♠ K onside to avoid a ♠ loser. That's in addition to finding cover cards so there are no losers in the minors.

 

In either case, it's a tall order to expect all the necessary cover cards to take 12 tricks to be in North's hand. So bidding slam is just too aggressive.

[Fluffy]

South pushed way too much by bidding 6 ♠.

 

After 4 NT RKCB, North answered 5 ♣ -- presumably 1 key card.

 

If the key card is the ♠ K, then North holds either the ♥ K or a ♥ singleton. That would leave the partnership with 1 sure ♥ loser. Then South has to find cover cards in North's hand for potential losers in ♣ and ♦.

 

If the key card is the ♥ A, then South still has a potential ♥ loser and must find the ♠ K onside to avoid a ♠ loser. That's in addition to finding cover cards so there are no losers in the minors.

 

In either case, it's a tall order to expect all the necessary cover cards to take 12 tricks to be in North's hand. So bidding slam is just too aggressive.

You are right, on your thoughts but seems to me you are suggesting that those thoughts should be made aftter 4NT and south should bid 5♠. this is very very wrong. Once he has bid 4NT south has no rights to stay in 5 with only 1 keycard missing, he is forced to bid 6, doing otherwise would be like showing a different number of aces he has.

 

Your thoughts should be made before 4NT is bid, south is very minimum and knowing the ammopunt of keycards won't help him evaluate, so he should rather keep cuebidding (5♣), or better yet, as mgoetze said, bid 4♠ over 3♠ (3NT showing a balanced hand would also help)

[Free]

Really? ATB? South ofcourse, he's the one who took control of the auction and drove to slam while North just did what he was asked to do: wait, support, cue, and show his number of keycards. South doesn't even have a 2♣ opening imo.

[ahydra]

That South hand is not a 2C opening. 1S then 3C describes it just fine.

 

ahydra

[Trinidad]

South 120%

North -20% for putting up with South

 

Mgoetze and Fluffy said it all.

 

Rik

[rhm]

South has an absolute minimum GF and drove to slam all on his own. If you're not playing some kind of (which you really should), South absolutely needs to bid 4♠ in response to 3♠.

I understand that some have fallen in love with Serious / Non-Serious 3NT. But love makes blind.

For my money I think 3NT as a suggestion to play is by far the best description of the South hand over 3♠.

And I would bet that 9 times out of 10 playing these 2 hands in 3NT would bring in all the matchpoints.

(I would have opened the hand with 2NT or rebid 2NT after 2♦)

 

The worst bid by far was 4NT. 4♠ over 4♥ stands out - the natural way of saying your slam try was not so serious.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[mgoetze]

The worst bid by far was 4NT. 4♠ over 4♥ stands out.

Disagree. Bidding 4♠ over 4♥ implies to partner that a diamond control is missing; partner may have a much stronger hand and slam may be missed. 4♠ immediately over 3♠ is a much better description.

 

While I have a lot of sympathy for opening this hand 2NT (or even 2♣ with a 2NT rebid), I think it is massively impractical to allow for getting back to NT once you have decided to sell it as an unbalanced hand with spades and found a fit. There just isn't enough room over 2♣-2♦-2♠ for that sort of thing.

[whereagles]

Opening 1♠ or 2♣ is a matter of style. But 2♣ sure doesn't make it any easier to (not) bid it.

 

Still, I would attribute this to "it's not rocket science"... If north had the ♥J slam would be close to 50%, and that's a card only a relay system can find.

 

At MPs it's probably better to bid game over 3♠. If you can dig 12 tricks from the play, you're probably over 60% anyway.

[gszes]

South has an absolute minimum GF and drove to slam all on his own. If you're not playing some kind of Serious or Non-Serious 3NT (which you really should), South absolutely needs to bid 4♠ in response to 3♠.

 

Honestly, I don't understand why this is posted as an ATB. What could North possibly do any differently? I see no plausible alternative to any of North's bids.

 

Even if you are playing serious/nonserious you run into the same cue bidding problems seen with

the other systems. Responder is forced to bid 4h and then opener cannot merely sign off in 4s

with both minors controlled (you noted this later) since responder can be much stronger and

fear a wide open minor suit for slam purposes when you bid 4s.

 

IMHO there is indeed room this is an ideal hand for a 4s bid even if playing some gadget for

3n. Opener is balanced and minimum (subminimum?) and has no interest in slam opposite anything

less than a 10 count which responder would feel compelled to make a slam try with anyway. I tend

to use 3n as showing at least 2 of the top 3 trump honors and I would still bid 4s over 3s

because the 3n bid itself should show slam interest opposite a minimum.

 

It does not hurt the partnership to invest an extra level when the 5 level if pretty safe but here

it is not if responder is near minimum for their bidding (they have promised around 1 ace worth of value).

[whereagles]

I understand that some have fallen in love with Serious / Non-Serious 3NT. But love makes blind.

 

 

Love doesn't make you blind. Passion does.

[billw55]

Classic example of falling in love with a good hand and going overboard, a common novice mistake.

[rhm]

Love doesn't make you blind. Passion does.

So you believe in love without passion?

I don*t :huh:

 

Rainer Herrmann

[ggwhiz]

That South hand is not a 2C opening. 1S then 3C describes it just fine.

 

ahydra

 

Or 2nt but my partner too frequently upgrades for the 5th spade so I can see 2♣

 

The more serious error (?) is trotting out big black instead of a 5♣ cue, then 5♠ denies a red King. Even that may be too high but it's a favorite.

[neilkaz]

Doubleton Q7 in ♥ should be enough penalty to make this not a 2♣ opening to start with and then S falls in love with his hand and insists upon slam :lol:

[johnu]

In the interest of fairness, I'll blame North for not having a couple of more kings. Not that he should have anything more than was promised in the bidding, but great partners find a way to show up with lots of extras when partner goes off the deep end in the bidding :) With this partner, North may also have considered subtracting 1 or 2 keycards from the response to KCB :rolleyes:

[rmnka447]

You are right, on your thoughts but seems to me you are suggesting that those thoughts should be made aftter 4NT and south should bid 5♠. this is very very wrong. Once he has bid 4NT south has no rights to stay in 5 with only 1 keycard missing, he is forced to bid 6, doing otherwise would be like showing a different number of aces he has.

 

Your thoughts should be made before 4NT is bid, south is very minimum and knowing the ammopunt of keycards won't help him evaluate, so he should rather keep cuebidding (5♣), or better yet, as mgoetze said, bid 4♠ over 3♠ (3NT showing a balanced hand would also help)

I don't disagree with your comments about going through this thought process before bidding 4 NT RKCB. Even if North has BOTH missing key cards, South should see 6 ♠ is in no way assured. That should be enough to dissuade South from using it because it can't get the information needed to know slam is a good bet.

 

However, I will disagree that once South uses 4 NT that 6 ♠ must be bid. South has taken over captaincy of the hand by using RKCB. If South sees from the response that 6 isn't odds on to make, then bidding 6 is insane. It's better for South to take the heat for not bidding 6 when rarely North holds the miracle hand than to bid on to an almost certain hopeless slam.

 

I'll agree that if South still wants to aggressively try for slam a 5 ♣ cue is a better option.

 

I'll also agree that 4 ♠ over 3 ♠ is probably the best option of all. Unless North can make a move toward slam over 4 ♠, it's probably not there.

[the hog]

South is to blame. The hand is not worth 2C and Sth's subsequent bidding shows he bid his hand 3 times, not once.

[antonylee]

(of course I was the culprit here -- no surprises)

[whereagles]

there is no guilt, only choices.

[Michael000]

As nobody in this thread has trashed this bidding sequence I presume it is based upon some 'thing'. For the benefit of my education could someone please explain to me the (logic / system / conventions) on which the biding on this hand was based?

 

South ( 21HCP )

S A Q T 9 2

H Q 7

D A Q

C A K 6 3

 

North ( 7HCP )

S J 8 4

H A 6 4 3

D 7 6 2

C Q T 2

 

South opens 2C I presume that's not natural and I know it's not an Acol 2C so what does that bid promise and what system is it based on?

 

North responds 2D which I presume is denying something - what?

 

South re-bids 2S , I presume that's natural?

 

North responds 3S, I presume that's natural and north expects South's bid of 2S to be promising 5 spades?

 

South bids 4C, is that Gerber but Clubs have already been bid!

 

North responds with 4H which looks like he's taking the 4C bid as Gerber showing 1 ace

 

South bids 4NT, is that Blackwood, if the 4C was Gerber why would you switch to Blackwood?

 

I realise I may be exposing my ignorance here but - educate me.

[the hog]

Firstly it has already been pointed out that Nth should open 2NT. Secondly I don't think any serious player who posts here plays Gerber, so 4C was a cue.

 

By the way Michael you have still not presented me with a credible auction for bidding slam with kxx in the h suit and staying out of it with qjx in the hands I asked you about in the cue bidding thread. Am I correct in assuming you cannot differentiate between the 2 hands?

[mgoetze]

I realise I may be exposing my ignorance here but - educate me.

Yeah I think everyone else who has participated in this thread had a different take on what the bidding sequence was supposed to show than you, but as the saying goes there are no stupid questions, only stupid answers, so...

 

I have no idea what an Acol 2♣ is - a strong hand with 6+ clubs? 2♣ in most natural bidding systems is just the strongest opening bid. In Benjamin this would, I believe, be 2♦, and there are very good reasons not to play it that way. (Reverse Benjamin, where 2♣ is the strong opening like it is here, and 2♦ is the second-strongest, is incrementally better, and then you should just drop the 2♦ opening for something more useful, as discussed in other threads.)

 

2♦ probably denies something, though not everyone has the same set of options. In any case it should be the default answer to 2♣, not denying very much.

 

2♠ does indeed show 5+ spades, game-forcing.

 

3♠ confirms the spade fit, showing 3 spades. For some players, it also shows some semblance of points / playing strength, with 4♠ showing 3 spades in an even weaker hand.

 

4♣ is definitely not Gerber. You should forget this convention ever existed. If advanced players play it all, then it only applies when no trump suit has been found, directly after a NT bid.

 

Instead, since we have established a trump suit, this is the start of a cuebidding sequence. 4♣ shows a club control, i.e. the King, Ace, a singleton or a void. (This style of cuebidding is dominant today, but in the middle of the previous century most would play it as showing a first-round control, the Ace or a void.)

 

4♥ similarily shows a heart control and, for most players, denies a diamond control.

 

4NT is Roman Keycard Blackwood, and 5♣ shows 1 or 4 keycards. Keycards being the 4 Aces and the King of Spades, which is the agreed trump suit. (To confuse you further, some people play it the other way around, with 5♣ showing 0 or 3, and 5♦ showing 1 or 4. The thing to ask an advanced partner is not "do you play Keycard or simple Blackwood", but rather, "do you play 03-14 or 14-30?")