ATB 4Hx=

[broze]

[hv=pc=n&s=sa92hk7d83cajt742&w=skt5hajt43dt975c9&n=sj843hdkqj642ck85&e=sq76hq98652dacq63&d=n&v=b&b=13&a=1dp2c(GF%2C%20Balanced%20or%20Nat%2C%202%2B!C)2h2s4hdppp]399|300[/hv]

 

Matchpoints.

 

2♣ was GF, natural 5 card club suit or a balanced game force. Pass over 4♥ by S would have been forcing.

 

4Hx could not be beaten. ATB.

[Jinksy]

100% to N. All of S's calls seem reasonable to me, not sure I like any of N's:

 

1) 1♦ - too aggressive for me on this aceless hand. I prefer both 2♦ and pass, though I don't think 1♦ is awful.

2) 2♠ depends on your forcing pass agreements.

3) P's X is a suggestion, not a command. This has approx 0 defensive tricks, rather than the 2-ish P might expect, and excellent support for P's primary suit. 4N as two places to play looks right having got this far. S will bid 5♣, which GiB will probably make and mortals will prob go off in, but prob not by more than 2 (and maybe undoubled).

[billw55]

I am not fond of north's opening bid with no defense, but it is tolerable. Having done so, he should pull the double. Also I prefer a club raise for his second call, or perhaps pass.

 

But mostly I blame west, who butts into our game forcing auction at the two level, vul, opposite a partner who passed. West deserves -1100 and would often get it with this bid. This time he was lucky, it will pay off the next five times he does it.

[ggwhiz]

Most partnerships I know deny 4-card spades when they bid 2♣ barring subsequent strong bidding (not doubling). That makes the 2♠ bid by north exceptionally ill advised.

 

If the 2♣ bid can show a balanced gf with 4 cards in spades then the bid was ill advised and the methods even worse.

[eagles123]

wtf is 2s by North

[nige1]

[hv=pc=n&s=sa92hk7d83cajt742&w=skt5hajt43dt975c9&n=sj843hdkqj642ck85&e=sq76hq98652dacq63&d=n&v=b&b=13&a=1dp2c(GF%2C%20Balanced%20or%20Nat%2C%202%2B!C)2h2s4hdppp]399|300|

Matchpoints.

2♣ was GF, natural 5 card club suit or a balanced game force. Pass over 4♥ by S would have been forcing.

4Hx could not be beaten. ATB.

[/hv]

IMO, it was bad luck although the system didn't help much. Viewing their 2 hands, NS seem to have bid well. The 5-level is fraught. On a good day, against 4♥, they might make, 2 x ♠s, 1 x ♥s, 1 x ♦s, and 2 x ♣s. On a bad day, 4♥ might go only 1 down, so they have to double, since they expect to make a minor contract. This was a terrible day. Even so, only a result-merchant would condemn the NS actions.

[the_clown]

I am not fond of north's opening bid with no defense, but it is tolerable. Having done so, he should pull the double. Also I prefer a club raise for his second call, or perhaps pass.

 

But mostly I blame west, who butts into our game forcing auction at the two level, vul, opposite a partner who passed. West deserves -1100 and would often get it with this bid. This time he was lucky, it will pay off the next five times he does it.

 

Its amazing his partner couldnt overcall with a 6 card suit and a 10 count at the 1 level.

[Trinidad]

If 2♣ shows real clubs or a balanced GF, then South's double should show the most defensive hand, i.e. the balanced GF. South should have passed to indicate that he has genuine clubs.

 

North could still pull the double. But South could have:

♠A95

♥KQ7

♦853

♣AJT7

and we would be blaming North for pulling.

 

Rik

[Trinidad]

3) P's X is a suggestion, not a command. This has approx 0 defensive tricks, rather than the 2-ish P might expect, and excellent support for P's primary suit.

What primary suit? South hasn't shown a suit yet.

 

Rik

[aguahombre]

Whichever of them devised their methods takes the blame. I believe North's hand should open 1D, but South's hand is not a game-forcing response if we agree to open light. These two hands should never be in a forcing pass predicament. When we cannot make game, and the opponents can, we should reconsider committing our side right off the bat with 2/1 -- even worse when the 2/1 bid might not even be a suit.

 

South needs to be able to show a 10-12 point hand with long clubs and let North be the Captain. 1D-3C? After that, all the blame or credit would go to North for his decision to compete further -- when they get to 4H. If we don't have such tool, then we probably should resort to 2C/1D only forcing to 3C.

[mgoetze]

Whichever of them devised their methods takes the blame. I believe North's hand should open 1D, but South's hand is not a game-forcing response if we agree to open light. These two hands should never be in a forcing pass predicament. When we cannot make game, and the opponents can, we should reconsider committing our side right off the bat with 2/1 -- even worse when the 2/1 bid might not even be a suit.

I would open the North hand, and I have a lot of sympathy for making a GF response with the South hand (I would make the same sort of bid opposite a 1M opening certainly), but given this, I would agree that it merits reconsidering whether this should establish a 100% forcing pass.

[WesleyC]

I'd assign the blame to system/agreements.

 

Although multi 2♣ is great, it can struggle sometimes when the opps compete.

[Cthulhu D]

Most partnerships I know deny 4-card spades when they bid 2♣ barring subsequent strong bidding (not doubling). That makes the 2♠ bid by north exceptionally ill advised.

 

If the 2♣ bid can show a balanced gf with 4 cards in spades then the bid was ill advised and the methods even worse.

 

No, it can probably show a GF with 5 clubs and 4 spades though.

[ayebee]

At match point pairs if you don't go -790 occasionally you're not doubling enough. From South's view lacking a good fit game seems to be a stretch and holding 3 defensive tricks opposite partners opening and rebid in spades, 4 hearts looks doomed.

 

Having said that, I don't like South's 2♠ which suggests extra values not sub minimum and bid on an awful suit when partner has pretty much already denied 4 spades. 3♣ is better but how about pass at this point which by inference is minimum with a good diamond suit. yes I know 2♣ is forcing but after interference S can bid again so a free bid should show extra values

 

50% N 50% unlucky

[marcindz]

In my opinion, you were sort of unlucky, or rather TRICKED by east.

 

1. Pass from E could mean 0-7PC or up to 11 with balanced, not exactly 10 with 5+ color (IMO HE should bid 1!H)

2. S didn't expect light opening.

3. W made a "gamble style" bid which could be costly, luckily - check point 1.

4. 4!H which S had to double bcoz of points + "WHY WOULD East HAVE 5 HEARTS FOR CHRIST SAKE?" thing.

[The_Badger]

100% blame with North. Those commentators who advocate opening 1♦ or that 1♦ "is not a bad bid" should hang their heads in shame. The rule of 20 is one of those rules that should be consigned to the rubbish/garbage bin. Many a time I see experts opening poor 10 or 11 point hands, and if they can do it, it must be right. Not in my book!

 

The one thing I look for when opening at the one level is quick tricks (A, AK, KQ, AQ, K usually supported with a J or 10) not turkeys with stuffing (this being Xmas lol!). There's a good case for passing with the North hand (especially vulnerable) as technically opening a weak 2 or 3 bid in a minor with an outside 4 card major is anathema, but, I see many players do this nowadays so 2♦ is so much better than 1♦ as the hand offers little in defence.

 

E/W are dead lucky (or cheating - it does happen, sadly) to find the unbeatable ♥ game, but overall North's bidding is truly atrocious in my personal opinion. (Hope you weren't North :unsure: )

[mcphee]

To be honest I do not consider the N hand worth opening, but lets take the view this is ok. If that hand is acceptable to open it is going to create some problems as you can hardly blame responder for thinking they belong in some game. It seems N/S re not using support dbles but why N felt it was time to mention those Spades is ridiculous. Granted responder may have spades, who cares you will get a chance to bid later, maybe raise S when partner bids them.I certainly would not pass 4H as S whose only blame is he thought partner opened the bidding and showed S because he had something.

[ayebee]

.

E/W are dead lucky (or cheating - it does happen, sadly) to find the unbeatable ♥ game.

 

I don't think it is necessary to invoke cheating here - my partner and I would probably bid the same as E/W at MP pairs. West's overcall is a bit thin but it satisfies the SQOT test (suit quality length + no of honours = level at which you can overcall) and may help partner to lead hearts. Easts raise is automatic - with a known 11 card fit 4H is probably a good sacrifice if it doesn't make.

[Trump Echo]

North's is to blame by at least 200%

[fourdad]

First error rules!!!

Simple question..........what bid more accurately describes North's hand to Partner?? 1D or 2D??

[aguahombre]

First error rules!!!

Simple question..........what bid more accurately describes North's hand to Partner?? 1D or 2D??

Simple answer: 1D doesn't accurately describe North's hand, yet. But, 2D is supposed to be immediately descriptive and isn't even close to accomplishing that. Partner will never imagine or look for 4-card spade support and prime controls in both rounded suits.

[rhm]

To be honest I do not consider the N hand worth opening, but lets take the view this is ok... (snip)....

I certainly would not pass 4H as S whose only blame is he thought partner opened the bidding and showed S because he had something.

As usual the whole discussion looks lopsided to me, full of hypocrisy.

Whether North has an opening bid or not can be debated forever and is a matter of agreements between North and South.

Whether you like it or not, such hands are nowadays frequently opened in top level play. At the top almost nobody requires any more two quick tricks to open the bidding.

 

What I do not understand is what it has to do with the final result.

Sure, if North would have been stronger 4♥ would have gone down, but then game or slam would have been on for North - South.

Would that have been less of a disaster if 4♥ goes down a trick when you can make 6♣?

 

Why has South to double in second position?

South has forced to game. One advantage of this approach is that PASS by South must be unconditionally forcing even for me and I play Pass rarely as forcing.

East-West are vulnerable and obviously believe they are at least close enough for game. South knows from the bidding East/West must have a huge fit in hearts.

What surprises does South have? He has neither trump length nor tricks in trumps, nor does it look likely that he can ruff anything on defense. He has aces outside (nice), but East/West know they are missing those aces.

If South passes and leaves the decision to North, North would have bid 5♣, very likely undoubled.

It turns out 5♣ is a cheap save against 4♥. In fact double dummy it can be made against any lead and defense and 6♣(!) is beaten only by an unlikely spade lead.

No, double dummy does not mean playing for singleton ♦ aces, sound declarer play is sufficient.

Whether North/South would find that "save" if North initially passes is anyones guess.

 

I tend to blame South at least as much as North. His DBL was the worst bid in the auction, but guess what: This bid gets plenty of approval on this forum.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[broze]

Just to answer a few questions about the methods:

 

Yes, S could still have 4 spades. After 1D-2C uncontested 2S by North would show an unbalanced hand with 5D, 4S and would not promise extras. I can't see why N shouldn't bid 2S here as well. I would much prefer to face the problem North faced having bid 2S rather than having not bid it.

 

Yes, South had available 3♣ to show 10-12 pts invitational at his first turn to call.

 

NS open on the lighter side and North's opening bid is not a deviation from that. 2D is impossible of course.

 

Thanks for comments so far.

[aguahombre]

 

Yes, South had available 3♣ to show 10-12 pts invitational at his first turn to call.

And, yet he chose not to do that. ATB is resulting by definition. South made a decision to create a nebulous game force instead of using an available tool. The result was the wrong person having control of the auction rather than describing his hand to let partner make the subsequent mistakes. Whether that choice was a good one in theory or not, it was the cause of the result.

[PhilKing]

South's double of 4♥ looks right to me - the hand looks to be well into the bottom 20% in terms of suitability for bidding on, and that is what double suggests. In simple terms he expects to beat them most of the time but not to make game unless partner has an obvious pull of the double.

 

Just looking at the auction and not the hand, I would guess that an optimum spread would be for South to bid on about 30% of the time, make a forcing pass 50% (sometimes planning to pass and pull) and double 20%.

 

North's pass is just not bridge as far as I am concerned.