Psyche or Deviation or Misbid?

[Xiaolongnu]

♠QJ98xxxx

♥Axx

♦Jx

♣-

 

Singapore, club players, full of greying grannies so frail and delicate that any amount of agitation will make them scream or panic or cry. In other words, tread carefully please.

 

With this hand, first seat opens 2C which is meant as a misguided version of the Romex dynamic 1NT. This is a system often used by my club and most of them meant it as 18-21 any hand. This pair is known to take it even further and include hands of 13 hcp and extreme distribution routinely. In addition, the person bidding this hand is a well known overbidder herself. They have alerted this part properly. Still I wonder whether they are taking it too far this time round.

 

When asked, the club player in question said that she was genuinely evaluating her hand as 18 points. On the slightest further questioning she vehemently declared that she was not psyching because "No! Psyches are unethical." Note that urban legends in the clubs in my country has led to a lot of players thinking that psyches of ALL sorts are unethical. Of course it is not true but as someone said, it is tried tested proven that it is impossible to educate club players that using the stop sign as a means of communication is unlawful.

 

The point is she is saying she is definitely treating her hand as 18. So is this a psyche, deviation or misbid? It is gross enough, says my panel of analysts and I agree, but is it deliberate because it is not unintended, or is it not deliberate because she is swearing that she didn't mean it? Take it from me that she was not lying about her intention.

 

Of course as bridge teacher I will tell them that 4S is a good idea or 1S if they really feel like it, but first as Director, how?

[Vampyr]

I think that it is a psyche if her agreement is that 13 HCP is the minimum for this bid. I would tell her that if she wants to have agreement that this is an acceptable hand she must properly disclose it.

 

So if the opponents were damaged they do not get redress, unless of course partner fielded it.

[blackshoe]

This hand is not anywhere near a Dynamic NT. For one thing, a Dynamic NT contains a minimum of 6 controls. This hand has 2.

 

K&R evaluates this hand as 10.8 points. Danny Kleinman's method comes to a bad 7. I would have said 11 (not that I'm always — or even often — anywhere close to K&R B-) ).

 

If she and her partner both agree that if this hand had two more points it could be opened 2♣, then it's not a psych to open this hand 2♣. OTOH, if their agreement is that 2♣ shows 18-21 points, then this may be a psych. Let's see…

 

A psych is "a deliberate and gross misstatement of honor strength and/or of suit length" (Laws of Duplicate Bridge, Chapter I, Definitions). Clearly this person did not intend to grossly misstate her honor strength or suit length, so this is not a psych. It is nonetheless IMO a gross misstatement etcetera.

 

I would classify it as a misbid.

 

There is the question whether the stated agreement violates local system regulations, but I don't know what those are.

[the hog]

I love your post!! I would rule this as a psyche.

[blackshoe]

The purpose of this forum is to give people a place to improve their knowledge of the laws of the game and how they are applied. Where on the scale of knowledge those people are starting is not relevant.

 

I have disapproved and will delete the exchange between hrothgar and sanst, as hrothgar's initial comment is indeed rude and inappropriate for this forum. Further posts along the same line will also be deleted.

[ggwhiz]

Years ago some rubber bridge players opened a strong 2♣ bid against me (ACBL land) on AKQ 8th and out and lost the ruling because you just can't psyche an artificial strong bid here, intentional or not.

 

I have no idea what the relevant law is but I don't think the agreement of only 13 counts in the context of an artificial opening bid would be legal here either but natural 2 bids that only promise tricks are ok.

 

Just my best guess

[Echognome]

Perhaps I am confusing matters, but why would it be any of a psyche, deviation, or misbid? Isn't this a question of whether the pair is playing an illegal method?

 

The bidder said that this hand constituted a strong bid in their system. As such, I cannot see how it fits into any of the categories above. The bid was the system bid and was intentional. As such, aren't we only to judge whether the agreement is legal?

[blackshoe]

The recent "discussion" between Vampyr and myself in this thread is pointless, a distraction, and at least to me an annoyance and a provocation. So I've deleted it, including my original reply to ggwhiz. I've left his post though.

[Vampyr]

Perhaps I am confusing matters, but why would it be any of a psyche, deviation, or misbid? Isn't this a question of whether the pair is playing an illegal method?

Is it an agreement, though? If so, its legality would be easily available to the OP by reading his NBO's regulations as to whether an 8HCP agreement is permitted.

[Vampyr]

Blackshoe, would you please stop deleting my posts just because you don't happen to like them? If you are so deletion-mad, how about deleting messages that contain gratuitous ACBL references?

[blackshoe]

Stop making posts referring to "gratuitous ACBL references" and I'll stop deleting your posts.

[jeffford76]

Blackshoe, would you please stop deleting my posts just because you don't happen to like them? If you are so deletion-mad, how about deleting messages that contain gratuitous ACBL references?

 

Perhaps it is time to add another moderator to this group? As David seems to have left us we have one person making all of the decisions. I have found online fora to work much better with a diverse cast of moderators. I don't know if any of them want the job, but I can think of several regular posters that would be good additions.

[Fluffy]

There is some rule on the WBF site about a strong hand having to be a king above average, and average to be 10 HCP, I remmeber I had some discussion as those rules seemed to ban 3NT gambling opening with AKQ and out, since anything below average is suposed to be weak, and weak openings need a known suit.

 

In short I think you cannot agree to a hand below 10 HCP to be strong by definition. But there are many players who still open 9 counts on 6-5 shape at the 1 level and don't intend it as a psyche, wonder if it is in fact ilegal.

[blackshoe]

Perhaps it is time to add another moderator to this group? As David seems to have left us we have one person making all of the decisions. I have found online fora to work much better with a diverse cast of moderators. I don't know if any of them want the job, but I can think of several regular posters that would be good additions.

David started these forums on another site, and he asked me to help him run it. Then that site closed down, and BBO offered us space here. But it's still David's baby, as far as I'm concerned. If you have a problem with my moderation, I suggest you contact him.

[blackshoe]

There is some rule on the WBF site about a strong hand having to be a king above average, and average to be 10 HCP, I remmeber I had some discussion as those rules seemed to ban 3NT gambling opening with AKQ and out, since anything below average is suposed to be weak, and weak openings need a known suit.

 

In short I think you cannot agree to a hand below 10 HCP to be strong by definition. But there are many players who still open 9 counts on 6-5 shape at the 1 level and don't intend it as a psyche, wonder if it is in fact ilegal.

"Some rule on the WBF site" would presumably be a WBF regulation, applicable to WBF events. Whether such regulations apply to Singapore events is up to the Singapore NBO.

 

A natural one level opening and an artificial one or two level opening are two different animals. One may well be legal even if the other is not.

[Echognome]

I agree with Gonzalo. I think if the player says that this is a strong opening bid in her system, then why fight it and try to recharacterize it as a psyche, deviation, or misbid. I would simply say then that this is agreement is legal/illegal based on the guidance from my NBO.

[blackshoe]

A psych is a deliberate gross departure from partnership agreement/understanding. If the player says she wasn't psyching, then she wasn't psyching. That doesn't mean that she didn't misbid. The question is "what is the actual agreement?" If this hand fits within the actual agreement, then she didn't misbid. She didn't deviate either. However, if the agreement is illegal, she's still not off the hook.

[pran]

From the Norwegian regulation which on this matter claims to be a direct translation from the corresponding WBF regulation:

1: An average hand is a hand that contains one honour of each rank

2: A weak hand lacks a King or more from being an average hand

3: A strong hand contains at least a King more than an average hand

4: A long suit contains at least three Cards

5: A short suit contains a maximumn of two Cards

 

Note that these terms are matters of definitions and not subject to players' Choice of use.

 

So it is illegal under any jurisdiction that use the WBF regulation or equivalent to say that a hand with less than 13 HCP (excluding possible distributional values and using the 4-3-2-1 scale for HCP) is "strong". (Even a hand containing all thirteen spades is not strong by definition!)

 

 

And I believe one should be aware that it is a privilege for a player to have his bid accepted by the Director as a psyche. The point is that such acceptance exempts the player from many of the reactions otherwise resulting from violations of the laws.

[blackshoe]

From the Norwegian regulation which on this matter claims to be a direct translation from the corresponding WBF regulation:

1: An average hand is a hand that contains one honour of each rank

2: A weak hand lacks a King or more from being an average hand

3: A strong hand contains at least a King more than an average hand

4: A long suit contains at least three Cards

5: A short suit contains a maximumn of two Cards

 

Note that these terms are matters of definitions and not subject to players' Choice of use.

 

So it is illegal under any jurisdiction that use the WBF regulation or equivalent to say that a hand with less than 13 HCP (excluding possible distributional values and using the 4-3-2-1 scale for HCP) is "strong". (Even a hand containing all thirteen spades is not strong by definition!)

 

 

And I believe one should be aware that it is a privilege for a player to have his bid accepted by the Director as a psyche. The point is that such acceptance exempts the player from many of the reactions otherwise resulting from violations of the laws.

Hm. So a hand with 13 spades is an average hand. Does that really make sense?

 

privilege |ˈpriv(ə)lij|

noun

a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group of people: education is a right, not a privilege | he has been accustomed all his life to wealth and privilege.

• something regarded as a rare opportunity and bringing particular pleasure: I have the privilege of awarding you this scholarship.

• (also absolute privilege)(in a parliamentary context) the right to say or write something without the risk of incurring punishment or legal action for defamation.

• the right of a lawyer or official to refuse to divulge confidential information.

• chiefly historical a grant to an individual, corporation, or place of special rights or immunities, especially in the form of a franchise or monopoly.

In which sense do you mean your usage of the word "privilege"? And so what? Players should consider themselves lucky the TD believes what they say?

[RMB1]

There is some rule on the WBF site about a strong hand having to be a king above average, and average to be 10 HCP, I remmeber I had some discussion as those rules seemed to ban 3NT gambling opening with AKQ and out, since anything below average is supposed to be weak, and weak openings need a known suit.

 

 

The WBF regulations only apply to opening bids below 3NT, not 3NT and above, so a gambling 3NT is not restricted.

 

Opening bids at the one-level are restricted by HUM and opening bids between 2♣ and 3♠ are restricted by "Brown Sticker".

 

("Brown Sticker" regulations would restrict playing an opening 3♠ as a "gambling 3NT").

[WellSpyder]

I agree with Gonzalo. I think if the player says that this is a strong opening bid in her system, then why fight it and try to recharacterize it as a psyche, deviation, or misbid. I would simply say then that this is agreement is legal/illegal based on the guidance from my NBO.

Fine. But let's not forget the need for proper disclosure. OP implies that this pair properly disclose that their so-called strong bid might have as few as 13 points. But do they disclose that it might have as few as 8?

[pran]

In which sense do you mean your usage of the word "privilege"? And so what? Players should consider themselves lucky the TD believes what they say?

Yes

[Fluffy]

The WBF regulations only apply to opening bids below 3NT, not 3NT and above, so a gambling 3NT is not restricted.

 

Opening bids at the one-level are restricted by HUM and opening bids between 2♣ and 3♠ are restricted by "Brown Sticker".

 

("Brown Sticker" regulations would restrict playing an opening 3♠ as a "gambling 3NT").

 

Right, now I remember the problem was about 3♠ Alder (same as 3NT gambling but played from the other side)

[Cthulhu D]

Hm. So a hand with 13 spades is an average hand. Does that really make sense?

 

This is because 'weak' 'average' and 'strong' are purely defined in HCP and a hand with 13 spades does indeed only have 10.

 

WBF doesn't include 'or equivalent playing strength' which perhaps it should but which should DEFINITELY be includes in explanations. hate people who explain things as a strong when it could just be 'tons of offence'

[pran]

This is because 'weak' 'average' and 'strong' are purely defined in HCP and a hand with 13 spades does indeed only have 10.

 

WBF doesn't include 'or equivalent playing strength' which perhaps it should but which should DEFINITELY be includes in explanations. hate people who explain things as a strong when it could just be 'tons of offence'

And very wisely so, because these terms are used to define strength limits for certain types of calls to be accepted as legal.

 

When for instance some artificial calls according to regulation may be used with a variety of "weak" hands provided there is also included at least one "strong" option then it is essential that players cannot get around this condition by stating that "my hand with 10 HCP has equivalent playing strength to a (different) hand with 13 HCP".

 

However, explanations should of course always be clear on whether the stated strength is HCP only or incorporates "equivalent playing strength".