How would you bid the slam?

[HeartA]

[hv=n=sqxxxhkxxdqtckqjx&s=sakxxhaxxdaxxcaxx]133|200|My friend and I were practising in the partnership bidding:

South North

1♣ 1♠

4♠ pass

[/hv]

 

6S was almost laydown (as long as ♠3-2). Who should start the slam try?

[mcphee]

I think S should open 2N, however that aside clearly the N player must bid over 4S.

[Walddk]

In my book a raise to 4♠ shows 19-21 with 4-card support, so North has enough to bid on. If you are a little sophisticated, it also denies a singleton or void (should be bid en route).

 

Opener can't take a slam initiative after a 1-o-1 response. All he can do is describing his hand. 4♠ is by no means a "stop bid" as many think. It's merely a description of opener's hand. It's "stop" if responder has nothing, but I can't stop and have no wish of stopping partner if he has a good hand.

 

So 4♠ tells partner: I think we should try game even if you have 6 hcp. You are welcome to bid on if you have enough for slam.

 

I don't agree with mcphee. This is not a 2NT opening to me, unless you play that as 19-21 of course. It's far from being worth an upgrade to a 20 count with 4333 and no intermediates.

 

Roland

[Guest Jlall]

i agree with roland that this is nowhere near an upgrade to a 20-21. North should certainly move over 4S. They get 100 % blame.

[mike777]

5C over 4s. Not easy but still worth one move if 4s=18-19 flat hand.

Have made many worse bids than "pass" with opener hand.

 

40% north, 60% Bridge Gods.

[joker_gib]

13 HCP a fit and KQJ in ♣ in front of 19+ is certainly worth a move !

 

100% blame to north ! :P

[Free]

North SHOULD bid, end of story.

[ochinko]

After the opening I count hands with a fit in losers rather than points. So 4Sp from South means a hand that would make a game if North has 9 LTC, i.e. South should bid 4Sp with 5 LTC. North sees only 7 in his hand, so the slam is obvious.

 

If we look at South's hand, it actually has 7 losers, so my rebid in his place would be 2NT, not 4Sp, even if that would mean to hide the fit for a while.

[flytoox]

North 100%.

[the hog]

You guys are kidding!

South has 9!!!!!! controls - count them! You expect Nth to move with that collection of quacks. That is the most unbelievable resulting after you have seen the hands that I think I have ever come across.

 

Very hard hand for natural bidders, but South has to find some other bid apart from 4S. Please don't talk nonsense in future guys - it makes these forums look silly.

[joker_gib]

You guys are kidding!

South has 9!!!!!! controls - count them! You expect Nth to move with that collection of quacks. That is the most unbelievable resulting after you have seen the hands that I think I have ever come across.

 

Very hard hand for natural bidders, but South has to find some other bid apart from 4S. Please don't talk nonsense in future guys - it makes these forums look silly.

Ron,

 

When you have 13 HCP with small cards, it is clear that the 19+ of partner are made with aces and that he has a lot of controls !

 

I know that the south hand is fairly good with 4 aces but the 4♠ bid is natural with that 4333 when you have no specific system.

 

Don't forget that the questions was : "Who should start the slam try?"

 

And it is clear that it's up to north.

 

So talking about "nonsense" and "silly forums" seems to be a little bit too much ! :P

 

Alain

[Free]

You guys are kidding!

South has 9!!!!!! controls - count them! You expect Nth to move with that collection of quacks. That is the most unbelievable resulting after you have seen the hands that I think I have ever come across.

 

Very hard hand for natural bidders, but South has to find some other bid apart from 4S. Please don't talk nonsense in future guys - it makes these forums look silly.

Seems like you love to call people's oppinions "rubish" or "nonsense", but if you don't continue with the North hand, you're just a silly player. Suppose partner has all the small cards, just COUNT for once in your life: 4 in ♠, 3 in ♥ and 4 in ♦, this makes 11HCP. So partner has AT LEAST TWO ACES to make his jumps. Can't you handle 5 anything???? Get real, this time you're the one making this forum (no, actually yourself) look silly, not the rest...

[whereagles]

I don't think North or South have any particular fault on missing this one. South might have upgraded his hand due to superb controls and opened 2NT, but 1C is also ok. North might have bid on over 4S, but with a max of 31-32 hcp it is not unreasonable to pass.

 

Both N and S actions were sound, but bidding is not a perfect science. Any other action by N/S would have worked on this one, but it could also lead to a bad result in a different layout, so...

[mcphee]

The hand that was raise to 4S has a huge fit and not to bid again simply shows no understanding of the game. The bidding should have continued 5C, 5D, 5H, 6C/S.

For anyone to suggest not to bid on just means you that you have no concept of what 4S shows.

[pclayton]

North needs to invite with 5♣. Its possible (barely) that we are off to cashing ♦'s: AKJx, AQx, xx, Axxx.

 

As far as the 2N question: If South thinks pard has 4 spades, then open 2N. Otherwise 1♣ is best. :)

[hotShot]

I don't like the 4♠ bid, it wastes a lot of bidding space. And you hold all 5 "Aces" one would ask for by RKCB. Partner can never guess that you have "total control".

 

North has 13 HCP, but has to downgrade the ♦Q. Opposite of 19 the hands are worth somewhere between 30 and 32 HCP not realy the slam range, south has to have maximum for slam and to north there are still lots of aces missing.

 

If your system has no better bid than 4♠ (e.g. 2♦ will be hardly passed ), than north is in trouble, to him it must seem there is a big keycard problem. Since he has no reason to think south has a short suit, he should ask for aces with 4NT. This will give him all the information he needs, and they can always stop. Why should he start cuebidding if he needs south to have 4 keycards to try slam?

[cherdano]

That's the kind of hand why I asked about a forcing raise structure after 1-over-1 in this forum a while ago. E.g. if you play "under-jump" shift as forcing raise, then the auction would go:

1♣-1♠-

3♥-4♣

4♦-4♥

4NT-5♦ (RKCB 1430)

5♥-6♣ (Spade queen and more useful stuff in clubs)

6♠

 

3♥ is a game forcing raise of 1♠. Responder can now safely show his excellent club support on the 4 level, and 4♥ is also safe later (since opener's range is well-defined and no controls lacking, I don't think this should be LTC). Then opener can take control. Even I wouldn't miss this slam :)...I hope :D

 

I would really dislike bidding 2♦ then 3♠ with this kind of hand. Sounds like having at least 2 more clubs than the actual hand to me.

 

Arend

[mikestar]

Since nobody else had done it, let's count Zarpoints:

 

South has 19 HCp and 9 contorls for 28 + 8 for his 4333 shape = 36.

 

This is two tricks better than a minimum opening (26 zars), so it merits a jump to game, but has no excess value for 4S. After all, the hand has great controls but no shape. Give responder Jxxx xxx Kxx Kxx, a perfectly reasonable 7 count, and even game hasn't got a prayer--though South must bid game becuase game will be good or laydown oppsite most minimums.

 

North on the other hand, has 13 HCP with 2 controls for 15 plus 10 for the 4432 shape gives 25, even deducting something for the QD North is near opening count range--about two trickes better than he might have been. North must move.

 

Let's also consider Culbertson's rule: "invite slam if a perfect minimum will make it a laydown."

 

By this standard, South does not have a slam try but North does: South's "perfect minimum is his actual hand--4 Aces and the King of trumps.

[jdulmage]

5♣ bid does not hurt after 4♠.

 

Clearly North has to make a move.

[HeartA]

Thanks for all the responses. I was South and 1m-1M-4M indeed shows 19-20 (21) hcp of flat hand. We don't use many conventions as I believe that too many conventions are not good for intermediate players. Though he agreed that he should not pass my 4S, I had some sympathy for him since his hand was short of controls.

[TimG]

I think S should open 2N, however that aside clearly the N player must bid over 4S.

Why would south want to grab the NT? He has no declarer value; it's almost a sure bet that any NT contract will play better from responder's side.

[TimG]

You guys are kidding!

South has 9!!!!!! controls - count them! You expect Nth to move with that collection of quacks.

Let's give opener ♠KJ, ♥QJ, ♦KJ = 11 HCP. Opener must have at least 2 aces for his jump to 4♠ (to get to 19 HCP, notice that opener must also have two aces to get to 18, 17, or even 16 HCP). And, if that's all he has, 5♠ will be safe.

 

Yes, we all know that this collection of quacks isn't as good as most 13 HCP hands with some aces in it. But, in this case we KNOW partner must have those aces. And, once we have aces in combination with our quacks, the quacks pull their full value, or more. No need to stubbornly devalue our quacks when we know they will be working.

[the hog]

Kxxx

AQ

KJ

Axxxx

 

So you are happy being in 5S? Is this an atypical hand for the auction? Not at all.

[TimG]

Kxxx

AQ

KJ

Axxxx

 

So you are happy being in 5S? Is this an atypical hand for the auction? Not at all.

Yes, that's atypical. Because jumping to 4♠ overstates the value of the doubleton honors. A jump to 3♠ should be plenty with this hand.

 

Tim

[the hog]

Tim, I doubt if anyone would bid 3S on this, especially at Imps. You miss too many games.