Grand jury

[mike777]

It is common in many states to not do an autopsy due to lack of funds on hundreds if not thousands of deaths despite the state guidelines calling for an autopsy. Without a ruling of homicide, no case.

 

Another problem is that often, very often the autopsy is done by an untrained local medical examiner. Actually the medical examiner need not be a doctor and is often not a full time job.

[kenberg]

The list is labeled "Murder offenders." In 3,925 cases they don't know (officially) who killed the person.

 

Oops, my error. I am relieved. :)

[cherdano]

I couldn't bear to watch the video, but from what I read about the case of Eric Garner, that grand jury verdict is truly infuriating.

And it also again makes the case that the police in the US is out of control - literally, i.e. out of the control of the people it is supposed to serve. See the quote

from Bill Bratton (NY police commissioner) in

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/12/context-for-the-punishment-free-killing-of-eric-garner/383413/?single_page=true

[helene_t]

3' date='925 whose sex was unknown [/quote']

Sometimes the sex of the victim is difficult to determine, for example if the killer ate the victim.

[mike777]

Sometimes the sex of the victim is difficult to determine, for example if the killer ate the victim.

 

The bones should clarify. Also there should be other indicators in the stomach.

 

 

In any case there often will NOT be an examination even if the guidelines call for one due to funding.

 

If there is an examination it will often be by an untrained person.

[mike777]

I couldn't bear to watch the video, but from what I read about the case of Eric Garner, that grand jury verdict is truly infuriating.

And it also again makes the case that the police in the US is out of control - literally, i.e. out of the control of the people it is supposed to serve. See the quote

from Bill Bratton (NY police commissioner) in

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/12/context-for-the-punishment-free-killing-of-eric-garner/383413/?single_page=true

 

 

Good point.

 

Also please note this is NYC and a high view case. A situation where funding and training were not an issue.

 

 

 

 

My local newspaper, not NY, has been running a series noting how funding and lack of training and basically lack of even doing any death examination is common in suspicious deaths in my smaller state.

 

It would be interesting if these issues are also common in German states?

[y66]

FBI Director James Comey gave a speech today in which he talked candidly about the legacy of racism in law enforcement and what members of his profession can do to ease tension and overcome racial bias.

[kenberg]

I saw a similar article in the Post. His mention of "paddy wagon" : I mentioned in another thread that I had been hauled off in a pddy wagon when I was 17. Apparently the term is no longer in common use and required an explanation. I called it a paddy wagon because I grew up calling it a paddy wagon and I never thought at all of the origin of the word.

 

I hope that we can find a way forward. It's important. I think that it is also very tough.

[blackshoe]

I saw a similar article in the Post. His mention of "paddy wagon" : I mentioned in another thread that I had been hauled off in a pddy wagon when I was 17. Apparently the term is no longer in common use and required an explanation. I called it a paddy wagon because I grew up calling it a paddy wagon and I never thought at all of the origin of the word.

 

I hope that we can find a way forward. It's important. I think that it is also very tough.

It's funny how things evolve: somebody comes up with some term with "racist" connotations. The term is in common use long enough that the original connotations are lost. And then somebody comes along and wants to expunge the term from the language "because it's racist". No. It was racist, but it isn't any more.

 

I will grant that some terms that originated with racist connotations still have them, but if you have to explain to people that a "paddy wagon" is the vehicle in which the police haul people off to jail, they clearly aren't going to see anything racist in it. For that matter, how many people today know that "paddy" was once a general term for an Irishman?

 

Or is it still racist because the people it targeted have longer memories than the rest of us?

[aguahombre]

The two common theories about the word "paddy wagon" are that they were named for the predominately Irish cops who drove them or for the predominately Irish drunks who rode in them.

 

A third is that the word "paddy" was derived from "patrol".

[GreenMan]

The two common theories about the word "paddy wagon" are that they were named for the predominately Irish cops who drove them or for the predominately Irish drunks who rode in them.

 

Yep, it's hard to claim that it's an oppressive term when it's likely named for the people in power at the time.

[aguahombre]

Yep, it's hard to claim that it's an oppressive term when it's likely named for the people in power at the time.

However, the term "paddy" did evolve into a racist thing. Blacks used it to refer to whites -- Irish or not; but, it wasn't a venomous reference -- more benign than things whites called blacks.

[hrothgar]

Yep, it's hard to claim that it's an oppressive term when it's likely named for the people in power at the time.

 

Regardless of whether or not this was true, the original claim was that this term was racist.

 

Moreover, there is considerable debate whether the expression referred to the individuals driving the van or locked up in the van.

[kenberg]

Intent perhaps matters here. We should try not to insult people unintentionally, but if it happens maybe we can be forgiven.But, at least sometimes, we should correct ourselves in the future.

 

Example: I assume that the Stevie Nicks song Gypsy does not intend to insult anyone. Still, we might consider the stereotype.

 

Example: Locally, the Washington football team is getting a lot of criticism for being the Redskins. Maybe no offense was intended, but the fans dress in ridiculous Indian (make that Native American) costumes and I can see how it could be insulting. I have suggested that we regard redskin as referring to a potato and simply change the name to the Washington Potatoes.

 

Anyway, I can never really remember which slang term goes with which national origin so I would look not only insulting but foolish if I trotted them out.

[barmar]

I remember when I was a kid we called someone who took back a gift an "Indian giver". I assume the origin of the term was racist, based on some stereotype of Native Americans reneging on promises (ironic, since most of the history of whites vs. Indians involved us putting them down and breaking old promises). But to us kids it was just a random idiom, we didn't know anything about where it came from, and it didn't make us think worse of Indians (at least, no more so than the cowboy pictures did).

[blackshoe]

According to Wikipedia, the phrase grew out of a cultural misunderstanding.

 

The article also references a couple of books that apparently are aimed at teaching us how to be politically correct in our speech and writing.

[kenberg]

I took Spanish in the early 1950s. I won't embarrass myself by trying to say it in Spanish, but I was taught that it was common, when someone expressed admiration for a possession such ad a painting, for the owner to say "it is yours". This was not to be taken literally. The correct response was "It couldn't have a better owner". I have never encountered this practice, so perhaps it was just one of those things written in 1950s textbooks, akin to George Washington and the cherry tree.

 

Who owns what can get tricky, and old decisions still have power. A friend grew up in Onamia Minnesota on Mille Lacs Lake (yes, Nille Lacs Lake is a bit redundant but no one worried about this). He is no longer living but he was my first source of information on the following: Some years back the Indians decided to bring the treaty documents, concerning Mille Lacs and other areas, that they had signed into court to receive what they had been promised. It has been an ongoing battle with, I believe, the Indians being largely successful. Both fishing rights and the harvesting of wild rice are involved. The link at http://www.glifwc.or..._Supplement.pdf will give you more information than you (or at least I) can comfortably digest.

 

The conflict of rights has many variants. Long ago I heard a recital of the poem "Forty Acres and a Mule", referring to the promise made to the freed slaves after the Civil War. A portion that I remember goes:

 

I'll take myself to lunch

I'll build my own swimming pool

Please just tell me when

I get my forty acres and a mule

[Bbradley62]

I remember when I was a kid we called someone who took back a gift an "Indian giver". I assume the origin of the term was racist, based on some stereotype of Native Americans reneging on promises (ironic, since most of the history of whites vs. Indians involved us putting them down and breaking old promises). But to us kids it was just a random idiom, we didn't know anything about where it came from, and it didn't make us think worse of Indians (at least, no more so than the cowboy pictures did).

Apparently, we're also not allowed to say that we sat "Indian style".

[kenberg]

As with most issues of proper behavior, there are arbitrary lines. Here is one that puzzles me:

 

I saw Song of the South, I suppose when it came out in 1946. James rasket is Uncle Remus, a kindly old black man who tells stories to the children about Br'er Rabbit, Br'er Fox and others. You can't easily find it, and it is never on television, at least not that I have seen. I can understand this. But now shift to Gone With the Wind, with Butterfly McQueen in the role of Prissy. I have heard no complaints. I don't get it. OK, Wind is presumably better than South. Still, I don't get it.

 

The Bojangles number of Swingtime is a very interesting case. I saw it described somewhere as the only blackface number a person can watch today without cringing in embarrassment. Here are the comments from the Wikipedia:

"Bojangles of Harlem": Once again, Kern, Bennett and Borne combined their talents to produce a jaunty instrumental piece ideally suited to Astaire, who here – while overtly paying tribute to Bill Robinson – actually broadens his tribute to African-American tap dancers by dancing in the style of Astaire's one-time teacher John W. Bubbles, and dressing in the style of the character Sportin' Life, whom Bubbles played the year before in Gershwin's Porgy and Bess. Dorothy Fields recounts how Astaire managed to inspire the reluctant Kern by visiting his home and singing while dancing on and around his furniture. It is the only number in which Astaire – again bowler-hatted – appears in blackface. The idea of using trick photography to show Astaire dancing with three of his shadows was invented by Hermes Pan, who also choreographed the opening chorus, after which Astaire dances a short opening solo which features poses mimicking, perhaps satirising, Al Jolson – all of which was captured by Stevens in one take. There follows a two-minute solo of Astaire dancing with his shadows which took three days to shoot. Astaire's choreography exercises every limb and makes extensive use of hand-clappers. This routine earned Hermes Pan an Academy Award nomination for Best Dance Direction.

 

Again I think that intent matters, and the excerpt above seems to go with that. I was interested to see the reference to John Bubbles, since I believe I met him once. He was very proud of his role as Sportin Life.

 

And then, of course, Porgy and Bess is a whole 'nother story. I saw it live at the Kennedy Center long ago. I can't recall who played Bess, but when she started things off with Summertime I was overwhelmed. I have never thought of that song in the same way since. I can understand objections to the portrayals, but still... ..

 

This whole thing is a mine field. I think it is essential to try to discern intent, but there is more to it than that.

 

 

 

[barmar]

Apparently, we're also not allowed to say that we sat "Indian style".

Is it "kingdomist" to refer to it as the Lotus position?

[barmar]

As with most issues of proper behavior, there are arbitrary lines. Here is one that puzzles me:

 

I saw Song of the South, I suppose when it came out in 1946. James rasket is Uncle Remus, a kindly old black man who tells stories to the children about Br'er Rabbit, Br'er Fox and others. You can't easily find it, and it is never on television, at least not that I have seen. I can understand this. But now shift to Gone With the Wind, with Butterfly McQueen in the role of Prissy. I have heard no complaints. I don't get it. OK, Wind is presumably better than South. Still, I don't get it.

A signifiant difference is that Song of the South is an animated film aimed at children, while Gone with the Wind is for adults. Adults should be better at understanding the cultural context of the film (both when it was made and where it's set). Additionally, their attitudes are mostly set -- you don't have to worry about a film influencing their racial biases during formative years.

 

Also, Song of the South is not generally considered one of Disney's better movies. So they're willing to leave it on the shelf rather than try to deal with the archaic attitudes it expresses.

[kenberg]

It seems likely that ", Song of the South is not generally considered one of Disney's better movies" stems more than a little from the Uncle Remus portrayal. I and my fellow 7 year olds liked it. I have been trying to recall black actors and actresses from thos days, and my childhood reaction to them. I have come up with three cases.

 

Uncle Remus in Song of the South

I just remember enjoying the movie.

 

Ella Fitzgerald singing a tisket a tasket in something.

I had always thought I saw this in Buck Privates Come Home but the net doesn't list her as being in it. She was in a different Abbott and Costello movie, Ride 'em Cowboy, maybe that was it. Whatever the case her singing is the only part of the movie that I remember, and it is not at all because she was black.

 

Old Charlie Chan movies.

At least if I remember correctly, some of these had a black character as well as Chan and his three sons.

My recollection is that these appearances were by far the most racially offensive. They were meant to be funny but I (perhaps I ever-estimate myself here) don't remember liking them even then.

 

No doubt the Tarzan movies had parts involving natives, but nothing stands out.

 

Various movies affected me, the strongest affect I recall came from a Tarzan movie with a man-eating plant. I kept my distance from shrubbery for weeks after that.

[ArtK78]

Ella Fitzgerald singing a tisket a tasket in something.

I had always thought I saw this in Buck Privates Come Home but the net doesn't list her as being in it. She was in a different Abbott and Costello movie, Ride 'em Cowboy, maybe that was it. Whatever the case her singing is the only part of the movie that I remember, and it is not at all because she was black.

 

http://www.ellafitzg...ilmography.html

 

You got it. According to this website, Ella Fitzgerald sang A-Tisket A-Tasket on board a bus in Ride 'Em Cowboy. The paragraph about this scene also says that she took her seat at the very back of the bus as soon as she was done singing the song. This was 1942.

[aguahombre]

IMO, Paul Robeson has them all beat.

 

It is absolutely the only thing I remember about "Showboat".

 

There is a video of his opening "Ol Man River", for which I would have provided a link. But, the combination of my Yahoo search and the actual site created a broken link.

 

Maybe this adds nothing to a thread on racism; but, it might add to your entertainment.

Edited February 16, 2015 by aguahombre

[kenberg]

http://www.ellafitzg...ilmography.html

 

You got it. According to this website, Ella Fitzgerald sang A-Tisket A-Tasket on board a bus in Ride 'Em Cowboy. The paragraph about this scene also says that she took her seat at the very back of the bus as soon as she was done singing the song. This was 1942.

 

I remember her standing, while singing, in the back of the bus. I don't remember her as having any role at all in the movie, other than singing. And I can't say why I know it was Ella Fitzgerald. Probably because tiske was one of her well known songs.

 

Aside: Alexandri Petri had a recent column discussing memory. Roughly quoting her " I remember my sister hitting me on one of our family trips in the car. My sister remembers being in a helicopter, shot down by a rocket propelled grenade."

 

I was 3 in 1942. I am thinking that I must have seen it (Cowboy) later. 7 seems right for Song of the South, though. I see that Bambi also came out in 1942 and I saw that, I am sure, when I was very young. Maybe even when I was 3. Could be, But I hadn't thought i was that young, I gave up hunting in my 20s. I don't really think it was because I saw Bambi as a child. I just figured I was a city kid who should quit pretending he was Daniel Boone before I killed someone.

 

I want to go back for a moment to the difficulty of addressing our racial problems. We live near McDaniel College and I see there are to be some discussions there about the use of "the N-word". OK, but I have never used it in my life and I never heard my father use it. I was born in 1939 and my father in 1900, so that covers a lot of years. I am thinking the kids at McDaniel are mostly a bunch of white kids coming from backgrounds of far greater means than mine, and they don't use or encounter the word either. So what will be accomplished? A lot of white kids will learn that the problems we have are that someone else, someone they don't at all know, uses words that they themselves would never use. Is this going to help? We have met the enemy and it is someone else.