Overcalling a weak 2 bid

[wclucas42]

Neither. He suggested 16-18 with stoppers. This is normal.

 

Ok, good, that is what I am currently doing,

 

2 different ranges were provided in the post:

 

"...if you had a natural 2nt bid (~10-11 points or thereabouts with a heart stopper)..."

 

"- you can't bid 2nt anymore with 15/16-18 balanced. What will you do instead?"

 

and I couldn't tell if it was intentional or not. The two statements are far enough apart that I might have missed a subtlety which warranted the different ranges for the same bid.

 

Thanks,

[Vampyr]

2 different ranges were provided in the post:

 

"...if you had a natural 2nt bid (~10-11 points or thereabouts with a heart stopper)..."

 

This was referring to advancer's problem after an artificial 2NT overcall.

[wclucas42]

This was referring to advancer's problem after an artificial 2NT overcall.

 

So it is, Thanks.

 

I was confused by the reply at first, so I guess I misread it. I think we're on the same page for the most part. Stephen Tu's post might be a direct reply to post #19, makes total sense that way. :huh:

 

I started with a 2 NT natural overcall showing 15 - 17 w/ stops. I admit, I want a better agreement sitting in North... I want to be able to transfer and pass just like in a normal 1 NT auction. Stayman would be nice too.

 

A natural 2 NT overcall of a weak 2 should place no fewer than half the points in the deck. So I subtract my hand from 20ish and I can place RHO's points, sitting north I want to make sure I can land it in the right spot.

 

 

 

[Ace0Spades]

You have no promotable values in clubs or diamonds, just aces. Your spades have good filler cards. KJX is usually not as good as it seems. Often it goes small to the A and small back through the KJ with the Q on your left, but in fact either Q or A on your left means one heart stopper.

 

2S is correct.

[kgr]

......

So these would be the possible Stayman auctions:

2♦ - 2NT - (P) - 3♣ (Stayman) - 3♥, 3♠ or 3NT (3♦ here could be pick your major with Smolen responses), extra strength would need to be shown at your next turn to bid.

2♥ - 2NT - (P) - 3♦ (Stayman) - 3♠, 3NT, 4♠, 3♥ super accept in spades

2♠ - 2NT - (P) - 3♥ (Stayman) - (Pass) minimum 4+ hearts, 3NT, 4♥, 3♠ super accept in hearts --This would be the only auction where the strong hand doesn't declare.

.....

As an aside, is there a better way to format sequences like the above so they are more readable. I looked through the pinned topics and the help section, but didn't find much. If there is a preferred format please provide a link.

I appreciate that you try to make your posts as readable as possible, therefore my suggestion on you questions.

You could use the hand editor, with only bidding selected; like:

[hv=d=s&v=0&b=11&a=2d(Weak)2np3c]133|100[/hv]

- 3H=

- 3S=

...

 

Or you could use some more returns and I prefer bids by opps between brackets; like:

(2♥) - 2NT - (P) - 3♦ (Stayman)

(Pass)-?

- 3♠,

- 3NT, 4♠,

- 3♥ super accept in spades

 

Isn't there a generic post with formatting advise?

[kgr]

My first thought was 2NT. (Not sure if I'm good enough to make this count as a +1 for you :) ).

Note:

After (2H)-2NT we don't play the same system as after a 2NT opening because we don't want to play in H anymore.

3C is a puppet to 3D and can be weak with D or S, or some other strong hands.

Our bidding at IMPS would then be:

(2H)-2NT-3C-3D

or

(2H)-2NT-3NT

This also looks like the lebensohl 2NT, but lebonsohl is a lot more than a 2 NT bid.

 

So in your bidding would 2♥ - 2NT - 3♣ - 3♥ be Stayman with a heart stopper conversely would 2♥ - 3♥ be Stayman without a stopper? (this is where I started tanking) or do you just borrow the 2NT puppet bid?

 

From what I understand, in this use case lebonsohl is used after the takeout double of a weak 2 bid by the responder. I wasn't and am still not really certain it would work invoked for overcalls and advances.

 

Quickly applying lebonsohl:

 

overcalls of 2 of higher suit would still be natural and non-forcing

 

overcalls of 2NT puppets a 3 club (3 level continuations would work)

 

overcalls of 3 of a suit could still be game forcing

 

overcalls of 3 level cue bid, could still be Stayman w/o stopper (I don't know what advancer would do here with out stops in the opps suit and no 4 card major, is a new suit to play? How could he force? if short in opps suit, how could he show a long minor with slam interest? It's not like he can retreat to a previously bid suit so sign off and forces become problematic)

 

3NT makes me a little sick to my stomach, but transfers the problem nicely.

 

Being able to apply lebonsohl here has the advantage of one fewer gadget to memorize, but it seems like it will wrong side more contracts than 4 suit transfers... and as nekthen points out, I also lose the ability to pass in 2 NT as it is now a puppet bid.

 

Thanks for the responses, it's given me a lot to think about.

After a weak 2 by opps, we play 2NT natural (16-18 and good stops). So this is no Lebensohl 2NT.

 

(2M)-2NT

- 2NT: (15)16-18 and good stop

 

(2M)-2NT-(P)-?

- 3C=puppet to 3D

- 3D= 5c-oM, Inv+

- cue= GF, 4c-oM

- 3oM= slam try C

- 4X= natural slam try

 

(2M)-2NT-(P)-3C

(P)-3D-(P)-?

- cue= Both minors, 5-5

- 3oM= To play, weak

- 3NT= 6cD, singleton M

- 4C= 5-card D, 4-card C

- 4D= 6-card D, singleton C

- 4M= 6cD, singleton oM

- 4oM= Slam Force oM

- 4NT= quantitative, 5-card D

[mcphee]

I like 2N inspite of the 5 card S. Some days they lead H and score a ruff and my S are not so hot anyway. I have 2 aces which is good for NT and a useful S honor card will help develop that suit.

[bdegrande]

I would overcall 2♠with that hand, and with that diamond suit I would raise 2NT to 3NT. I will pay off to the rare case where there are exactly eight tricks.

[neilkaz]

I like 2N inspite of the 5 card S. Some days they lead H and score a ruff and my S are not so hot anyway. I have 2 aces which is good for NT and a useful S honor card will help develop that suit.

We agree. I also prefer 2N to 2♠.

[Stephen Tu]

Ok, good, that is what I am currently doing,

 

2 different ranges were provided in the post:

 

"...if you had a natural 2nt bid (~10-11 points or thereabouts with a heart stopper)..."

 

"- you can't bid 2nt anymore with 15/16-18 balanced. What will you do instead?"

 

and I couldn't tell if it was intentional or not. The two statements are far enough apart that I might have missed a subtlety which warranted the different ranges for the same bid.

 

Thanks,

 

The natural 2nt bid = 10-11 was in reference to the situation after a 2♠ overcall, what does advancer do with this. (2♥)-2♠-(p)-?

It wasn't clear whether you were contemplating using 2nt artificially in this spot or not.

 

It looks like you were confused by kgr's suggestion of a fancy system over a natural 2nt overcall. He was suggesting a natural 2nt overcall, non-forcing, 16-18. After which responder can do anything. But with his system responder has the option of bidding 3♣ which forces 3♦, after which responder can pass with the hand in the original problem (probably best on average, though if advancer could peek and know overcaller has A♦ maybe 3nt is a better gamble on a heart lead).

 

But I think you read the (2H)-2nt-3c-3d sequence as the 2nt bid forcing 3 clubs, starting a Lebensohl like sequence, 2nt being a puppet to 3c. Whereas kgr meant 2nt as just natural, 3c was freely chosen response, puppet to 3d. 3c forced 3d here. 2nt didn't force 3c.

[wclucas42]

The natural 2nt bid = 10-11 was in reference to the situation after a 2♠ overcall, what does advancer do with this. (2♥)-2♠-(p)-?

It wasn't clear whether you were contemplating using 2nt artificially in this spot or not.

 

It looks like you were confused by kgr's suggestion of a fancy system over a natural 2nt overcall. He was suggesting a natural 2nt overcall, non-forcing, 16-18. After which responder can do anything. But with his system responder has the option of bidding 3♣ which forces 3♦, after which responder can pass with the hand in the original problem (probably best on average, though if advancer could peek and know overcaller has A♦ maybe 3nt is a better gamble on a heart lead).

 

But I think you read the (2H)-2nt-3c-3d sequence as the 2nt bid forcing 3 clubs, starting a Lebensohl like sequence, 2nt being a puppet to 3c. Whereas kgr meant 2nt as just natural, 3c was freely chosen response, puppet to 3d. 3c forced 3d here. 2nt didn't force 3c.

 

I did miss read kgrs 3C puppet bid initially and he was nice enough to provide the rest of the system notes for the bid... I agree its pretty fancy, more complicated than anything I would have come up with... It's actually those type of continuation schemes that I am most interested, because right now natural response don't seem to be sufficient.

 

 

Thanks again for the comments and trying to steer me out of disaster, unfortunately, its probably not going to be the only time.