The "1 or 2?" dilemma

[whereagles]

Case at hand: (NV, IMPs, dealer South)

 

[hv=pc=n&s=s5haj8765da864ct9]133|100[/hv]

 

I think most would open 1♥ if hearts were AQ8765. But how about as it stands?

 

1, 2 or pass + bid hearts later?

[jallerton]

Am I dealer? What's the vulnerability?

[whereagles]

That didn't come off in script. Fixed now.

[blackshoe]

This fits my agreements with all my partners for a 2♥ opening, so I open 2♥. I also think it's just a tad weak for 1♥.

[Cthulhu D]

Playing a system where I can open a weak 2 in hearts I will do so and this is a maximum. I like preemption more because it's not 2nd in and I have a stiff spade. If it's right to compete in hearts partner will have a better idea if I open with 6 than pass it.

[steve2005]

Maybe if was AJT9xx, but really this is just a nice weak 2. even AQ missing J T & 9 would still be a weak 2

[MrAce]

1♥

[nige1]

[hv=pc=n&s=s5haj8765da864ct9&d=s&v=0&a=?]130|200|

Case at hand: (NV, IMPs, dealer South)

I think most would open 1♥ if hearts were AQ8765. But how about as it stands?

1, 2 or pass + bid hearts later?[/hv]

IMO 1♥ = 10, 2♥ = 8, Pass = 7.

I don't like the idea of hands in the gap between 1♥ and 2♥ but I'm unsure what you should do 2nd seat, vul, with

♠ 7 ♥ A 6 5 4 3 2 ♦ A T 9 ♣ T 9 7

[kenrexford]

1H for me. Switch minors, 2H. Rebid issue.

[mike777]

1h

 

6-4 with all of our9 hcp in our suits.

[akwoo]

I really don't get 1♥ here, at least playing 2/1.

 

You really want partner to force you to game on ♠KQxx ♥xx ♦Qx ♣KQJxx? And that's not even the worse game force partner could have!

 

Even with the Q, I consider this a 2♥ bid playing 2/1. I'd consider 1♥ playing Acol.

[MrAce]

I really don't get 1♥ here, at least playing 2/1.

 

You really want partner to force you to game on ♠KQxx ♥xx ♦Qx ♣KQJxx? And that's not even the worse game force partner could have!

 

Even with the Q, I consider this a 2♥ bid playing 2/1. I'd consider 1♥ playing Acol.

 

It's not about acol or 2/1, it is about hand evaluation. I can play hand constructing game all day long with you and believe me I will beat you in that game. God help to those whose pd can hold this when coming from pass or when open a so called weak 2. But if you are playing ACOL, this hand looks like strong 2 more than weak 2 to me.

 

GIB passes hands similar to this. I see everyday scores like 1♥+4 when 3rd seat opener passes his pd's 1♥. I also see them making game tries incase pd holds this type of hand, where they end too high at 3 level. I also see some playing 2♥ making +2 after a weak 2 opening, or going down in 2 ♥ when they were cold for ♦ slam. One day people will wake up about how many bad scores they get just simply due to not recognizing the importance of definition of a passed hand. They worry a hand where pd will force to game with 13+ and game will not make, while ignoring the games or slams that can be found vs a very little, but most importantly they ignore how much trouble they create to themselves because when their pd comes from pass or opens a weak 2, he can hold this or similar hands.

 

KNR says this hand is worth 13 hcp by the way.

[Cthulhu D]

It's not about acol or 2/1, it is about hand evaluation. I can play hand constructing game all day long with you and believe me I will beat you in that game. God help to those whose pd can hold this when coming from pass or when open a so called weak 2. But if you are playing ACOL, this hand looks like strong 2 more than weak 2 to me.

 

GIB passes hands similar to this. I see everyday scores like 1♥+4 when 3rd seat opener passes his pd's 1♥. I also see them making game tries incase pd holds this type of hand, where they end too high at 3 level. I also see some playing 2♥ making +2 after a weak 2 opening, or going down in 2 ♥ when they were cold for ♦ slam. One day people will wake up about how many bad scores they get just simply due to not recognizing the importance of definition of a passed hand. They worry a hand where pd will force to game with 13+ and game will not make, while ignoring the games or slams that can be found vs a very little, but most importantly they ignore how much trouble they create to themselves because when their pd comes from pass or opens a weak 2, he can hold this or similar hands.

 

KNR says this hand is worth 13 hcp by the way.

 

What's your rebid plan for the hand after 1S and a semi forcing 1NT? I'm mostly interested in if you are going to show diamonds or just show hearts.

[the hog]

2H. Too weak for 1H, especially playing 2/1.

Revising Nigel's scores. 2H = 10, 1H = 4, Pass = 2.

[MrAce]

What's your rebid plan for the hand after 1S and a semi forcing 1NT? I'm mostly interested in if you are going to show diamonds or just show hearts.

 

I will rebid hearts. I do not mind rebidding diamonds. I will just treat this hand as if I hold 10-11 less quality hcps.

 

What you asked is a good question though. IF I remember correctly, about 20 years ago, I read an article about opening 1♥ and rebidding 2♦ or 2♥ with 6-4 weak hands. I do not remember what kind of analysis it was and who wrote it. But it was basically saying that the difference in IMPS is almost none in long run, at MP 2♥ was slightly winner.

[Cthulhu D]

I will rebid hearts. I do not mind rebidding diamonds. I will just treat this hand as if I hold 10-11 less quality hcps.

 

What you asked is a good question though. IF I remember correctly, about 20 years ago, I read an article about opening 1♥ and rebidding 2♦ or 2♥ with 6-4 weak hands. I do not remember what kind of analysis it was and who wrote it. But it was basically saying that the difference in IMPS is almost none in long run, at MP 2♥ was slightly winner.

 

I guess this is a related question, if you have transfers after 1H-1S (denying 5 spades), so you can bid 2C to show 4 diamonds then correct to 2D to 2H would you do that? I mean, the power of this hand is not just the 6 card hearts, it's got useful red suits so I feel like if I open 1H (and I have a lot of sympathy for your point after thinking about it), I'm kinda wondering how to best communicate the hand to partner, do you get the diamonds in the picture or is it just hearts. I think if partner bids spades naturally it's better just to bid hearts, give up on the diamonds and hope you can bail on the auction ASAP because your hand is quite a bit worse (particularly if partner promises 5 spades).

[Siegmund]

"Too strong" for 2 and too weak for 1? No, there isn't.

But there are hands which have their values in the wrong place for a preempt, which are too weak for 1. I am willing to open a weak two with two aces, but not a 3- or 4-bid.

 

I pass Jxxxxx xx Kxx KQx, but it's not because it is "too strong" for 2S.

[gwnn]

A nice hand for two weak two's (2D 4-7 2M 8-11). As it is I bid 2H but I hate it. Definitely 1H with a void. Argh but it's such a nice hand! And I don't want Timo to stop playing with me! 1H it is.

[P_Marlowe]

Pass.

 

For us the hand would qualify for 3H, which I would not do, it would be super max for 2H,

hence I am also not doing it.

We would open 2H in 2nd, but not in 1st.

 

Overruling factors maybe trying to follow the field, ...

 

Playing with a pickup partner, I would open 2H.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[navahak]

3♥

[MrAce]

A nice hand for two weak two's (2D 4-7 2M 8-11). As it is I bid 2H but I hate it. Definitely 1H with a void. Argh but it's such a nice hand! And I don't want Timo to stop playing with me! 1H it is.

 

I would never stop playing with you! You have my word on that. Although you may regret playing with such an overbidder like me, which is totally another issue. http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif

[chasetb]

I can see a 1♥ opening on this hand if you can expect it to be that light. However, this hand easily fits into a 2♥ opening, and that's what I choose.

[mikeh]

 

GIB passes hands similar to this. I see everyday scores like 1♥+4 when 3rd seat opener passes his pd's 1♥. I also see them making game tries incase pd holds this type of hand, where they end too high at 3 level. I also see some playing 2♥ making +2 after a weak 2 opening, or going down in 2 ♥ when they were cold for ♦ slam. One day people will wake up about how many bad scores they get just simply due to not recognizing the importance of definition of a passed hand. They worry a hand where pd will force to game with 13+ and game will not make, while ignoring the games or slams that can be found vs a very little, but most importantly they ignore how much trouble they create to themselves because when their pd comes from pass or opens a weak 2, he can hold this or similar hands.

 

 

These are arguments about learning how to bid as 3rd seat opener when partner is a passed hand. The fact that you see a lot of bad contracts suggests you see a lot of bad bridge (not: that you play a lot of bad bridge, timo, I promise :D )

 

If you have found that by opening a weak 2 with this hand you are missing a lot of games, as opposed to a small number, then I suggest you get a better partner or a better method for advancing a weak 2 opening bid.

 

For every game a good pair misses after a weak 2 I will show you several bad results from opening at the one level with this hand, especially playing 2/1.

 

The fact is that in all methods....all....there will be hands that are at the extremes of the ranges for certain calls, and when that happens the partnership will usually need to have a bit of luck to land in the right spot. When one player is maximum, as this would be for a weak 2, then responder may need to be in an optimistic mood. Otoh, if you stretch to open 1♥, responder may need to be in a very pessimistic mood to avoid a bad outcome, and bad outcomes are not always failing by 1 undoubled trick in a close contract.

 

If your methods require this to be an opening bid, and you are playing 2/1, then you have a flaw somewhere in your methods, imo. Either you are an aggressive 2♣ opener or your 1 level bids are extremely wide range. What a lot of light openers don't see is the problems that flow when you widen the range for certain actions.

 

Edit: if playing a big club method, I would be ok with a style that made this a 1♥ opening.

[kuhchung]

i was too scared to post 2H because i knew Timo wouldn't upvote me and that's all i really want in life

[MrAce]

These are arguments about learning how to bid as 3rd seat opener when partner is a passed hand. The fact that you see a lot of bad contracts suggests you see a lot of bad bridge (not: that you play a lot of bad bridge, timo, I promise :D )

 

If you have found that by opening a weak 2 with this hand you are missing a lot of games, as opposed to a small number, then I suggest you get a better partner or a better method for advancing a weak 2 opening bid.

 

For every game a good pair misses after a weak 2 I will show you several bad results from opening at the one level with this hand, especially playing 2/1.

 

The fact is that in all methods....all....there will be hands that are at the extremes of the ranges for certain calls, and when that happens the partnership will usually need to have a bit of luck to land in the right spot. When one player is maximum, as this would be for a weak 2, then responder may need to be in an optimistic mood. Otoh, if you stretch to open 1♥, responder may need to be in a very pessimistic mood to avoid a bad outcome, and bad outcomes are not always failing by 1 undoubled trick in a close contract.

 

If your methods require this to be an opening bid, and you are playing 2/1, then you have a flaw somewhere in your methods, imo. Either you are an aggressive 2♣ opener or your 1 level bids are extremely wide range. What a lot of light openers don't see is the problems that flow when you widen the range for certain actions.

 

Edit: if playing a big club method, I would be ok with a style that made this a 1♥ opening.

 

It is not about missing games mostly. It is about the definition of a passed hand. I am totally in the opposite camp with you on this. Imo people create a lot of headaches for themselves if this is what their pd can hold for a passed hand or a weak 2 opener. They either have to give up on ability to open very light preempts (which is pretty bad imo) or they have to make a lot of decisions correct during the auction (which is even worse imo) I have no idea how can one comfortably make decisions when his pd weak 2 is look like almost a 2♣ opener with 2 more good cards added.

 

There is not really much to learn about opening in 3rd seat and how to continue bidding. If you open with 11 hcp and a hand ready to pass over 1M, then you pass if pd bids your 3 card M. I don't feel comfortable when/if my pd can hold this type of hand. I do not want to make another bid to encourage pd either when my hand is not good enough to play 2 NT or 3♥ vs his balanced 11. I hope you are not suggesting to not open this but open a balanced 11 at first seat. Hell, to me I like this hand more than most balanced 12 hcps. No wonder, KnR values this hand more than 12 hcp. But I looked at KnR after I replied to this topic.

 

Bottom line is, I am aware of the downsides of opening this hand 1♥. But I would take these downsides on any day over the downsides of a passed hand or weak 2 opener who can hold this type of hands. But I am aggressive on particularly 6-4 hands with Aces and all working hcps. I do not get excited as much with 5-5 or 5413 hands. If you check my previous posts you will see I pass a lot of 10 hcp hands with 5431 or 5-5 hands that some other posters said "auto opening"http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif