Call for a card not in dummy and next hand follows

[barmar]

What happens when we read both laws?

Bridge ceases to exist in a puff of logic (apologies to Douglas Adams).

[nige1]

The guidance I've had on this, from Max Bavin, is that there is no limit in the laws on the ability of the TD to designate otherwise and that it can be applied whenever you think the other side has contibuted to the situation that has led the card to become a penalty card.

Max Bavin's interpretation seems fair and sensiible,

 

The WBF should Immediately incorporate it into TFLB.

 

Or -- to be realistic for a moment -- perhaps the EBU might consider including it in both the Blue and White books.

[gordontd]

Max Bavin's interpretation seems fair and sensiible,

 

The WBF should Immediately incorporate it into TFLB.

 

Or to be realistic for a moment -- perhaps the EBU might consider including it in both the Blue and White books.

Perhaps the editors of those books will take note of this and include it for consideration in the next update.

[Vampyr]

"Declarer plays a card from dummy by naming the card, dummy removing the card from dummy's remaining cards, and dummy facing the card on the table. In playing from dummy's hand, declarer may, if necessary, pick up the desired card himself."

 

This would make it clear dummy's card is not played until it is placed on the table outside of dummy's remaining cards, whether declarer verbally called for the card or if he removed the card from dummy himself.

 

It would make nothing clear. Your wording above is gibberish.

[pran]

"Declarer plays a card from dummy by naming the card, dummy removing the card from dummy's remaining cards, and dummy facing the card on the table. In playing from dummy's hand, declarer may, if necessary, pick up the desired card himself."

 

This would make it clear dummy's card is not played until it is placed on the table outside of dummy's remaining cards, whether declarer verbally called for the card or if he removed the card from dummy himself.

It would make nothing clear. Your wording above is gibberish.

I couldn't disagree more - I find his wording both clear and consistent, and very much to the point.

 

Besides, it will not cause any conflict with laws that establish the obligation to play a card from dummy once it has been named by declarer, provided of course that the card is in dummy.

[aguahombre]

I couldn't disagree more - I find his wording both clear and consistent, and very much to the point.

 

Besides, it will not cause any conflict with laws that establish the obligation to play a card from dummy once it has been named by declarer, provided of course that the card is in dummy.

Although Bud's recommended wording is clear, it is not consistent. It is a recommended change -- not a clarification.

 

Currently the playing of a card from Dummy entails naming it. If the card is actually in dummy, it is the played card. Whatever happens thereafter, according to current wording, might be an irregularity..but it doesn't change the fact that the named card was a played card.

 

Bud's wording would require three things in order to establish the named card as a played card. That might or might not be a good thing, but it is a recommended change of the laws ---not a clarification.

[barmar]

Although Bud's recommended wording is clear, it is not consistent. It is a recommended change -- not a clarification.

I think Bud's wording was based on the assumption that the interpretation in the ACBL response is correct. It says more clearly what ACBL claims was intended.

[axman]

Although Bud's recommended wording is clear, it is not consistent. It is a recommended change -- not a clarification.

 

Currently the playing of a card from Dummy entails naming it. If the card is actually in dummy, it is the played card. Whatever happens thereafter, according to current wording, might be an irregularity..but it doesn't change the fact that the named card was a played card.

 

Bud's wording would require three things in order to establish the named card as a played card. That might or might not be a good thing, but it is a recommended change of the laws ---not a clarification.

 

Such things are putting the cart before the horse.

 

To be useful, things must be defined skillfully- such as the right to take a turn and when a turn [including the right] begins and ends.

[campboy]

I agree with Vampyr. This business about "dummy removing the card [...]" is not clear at all. The current wording is at least unambiguous (notwithstanding certain conflicts with other laws) in that what dummy does is not part of declarer playing the card. Bud's wording suggests -- nonsensically -- that declarer plays the card by dummy's action. A more sensible wording to what I presume to be the intended effect might be the following.

 

"Declarer designates which card is to be played from dummy. Dummy then picks up the designated card and faces it on the table, at which point it becomes played (see D following if dummy picks up the wrong card). Alternatively, if necessary, declarer may play from dummy's hand by picking up a card and facing it on the table."

[pran]

I agree with Vampyr. This business about "dummy removing the card [...]" is not clear at all. The current wording is at least unambiguous (notwithstanding certain conflicts with other laws) in that what dummy does is not part of declarer playing the card. Bud's wording suggests -- nonsensically -- that declarer plays the card by dummy's action. A more sensible wording to what I presume to be the intended effect might be the following.

 

"Declarer designates which card is to be played from dummy. Dummy then picks up the designated card and faces it on the table, at which point it becomes played (see D following if dummy picks up the wrong card). Alternatively, if necessary, declarer may play from dummy's hand by picking up a card and facing it on the table."

Well, about Dummy

He plays the cards of the dummy as declarer’s agent as directed

and (unless I am much mistaken) when a person A does something in his capacity of being person B's agent then legally that action is taken at the moment A does it, not already when B instructed him to do it?

 

I understand from various comments that this appears to be the understanding of ACBL, it certainly is my own understanding, and I consider Bud's wording to be a good clarification to this effect. I really do not see any part of Law 45 as definitely being in conflict with this understanding.

 

Of course, if WBFLC (which in my opinion is superior to ACBL on questions of Law) has a different understanding we obviously need a corresponding clarification.

[aguahombre]

IMO the ACBL interpretation is flat wrong. Also, IMO as a director, it ain't official unless it comes from the LC.

Bud apparently asked someone he considers "ACBL" (unknown who) and for the purposes of this thread the answer has become the "ACBL interpretation" to some people.

 

Ed is correct on two points. Whoever is self-representing the ACBL has failed to read what they are interpreting; and it isn't official.

[PeterAlan]

Declarer plays a card from dummy by naming the card, after which dummy picks up the card and faces it on the table.

At risk of adding to what may seem to be pinhead-dancing, may I (seriously) point to the significance of the comma in this sentence.

 

It clearly divides the first part of the sentence from the second, and supports blackshoe's contention that the "play" of a card from dummy by declarer is complete once it is (validly) named, and this completion does not depend on dummy's subsequent actions of picking up the card and facing it on the table.

 

The first part of the sentence defines and determines when the card is played; the second, as aguahombre said, is a protocol.

[blackshoe]

Thanks, Peter. :)

 

I think that one problem with the laws is that the command of first Edgar Kaplan and later Grattan Endicott of English grammar was/is far better than that of many people reading the laws as published. B-)

[BudH]

Let me be clear - I thought, until two different individuals, including Dan Plato, from ACBL told me differently, that due to the ", after which" in Law 45B the card was immediately deemed played when verbally called by declarer. This also appears to be blackshoe's contention and also a post many years ago I saw from bluejak seems to indicate (at least back then) a similar viewpoint.

 

I simply want higher powers to make it clear to all of us the intent and interpretation on whether a card called verbally by declarer is deemed played then, or not until dummy has at least started to remove the card from dummy's remaining cards.

 

I don't have a strong opinion on this - only that I seek clarification.

[Vampyr]

I agree with Vampyr. This business about "dummy removing the card [...]" is not clear at all... declarer plays the card by dummy's action.

 

Quite. LOL thanks Campboy, for affirming my faith that at least a few people know how to read English!

 

 

I think that one problem with the laws is that the command of first Edgar Kaplan and later Grattan Endicott of English grammar was/is far better than that of many people reading the laws as published. B-)

 

Well, no. Far too many examples of ambiguity and lack of clarity have been discussed on these forums, and in many cases a literal reading of a law turns out to be the opposite of what was presumably intended, or simply nonsense.

 

Kaplan and Endicott presumably had/has a good command of the English language, but lacked/lack either the skill or the desire to write a document in clear and unambiguous language, which is easy to understand and use. I think that the feeling now is that a Lawbook written in plain English, with short sentences and without eg convoluted constructions and vague wording, would seem less "grand" or "important".

 

For example, I don't think that the wording of the law in question would occur to most people. It is much more normal and clear to write: Declarer plays a card from dummy by naming the card. Dummy then places the card in a position to indicate it has been played.

 

Or something like that. It's not too hard, so it is probably the desire and not the ability that is lacking.

[PeterAlan]

But IMHO, there's no way the actual wording can be interpreted that way. It's describing actions by two different people: first declarer plays the card by naming it, THEN dummy picks it up and faces it on the table

 

The problem with that view is that the laws also describe dummy's action of moving the card as playing it: Law 42A3 says that dummy "plays the cards of the dummy as declarer's agent".

I think the problem there is that the word "play" is being used in two different ways: there's whatever action makes a card officially part of the trick, and there's the action that physically moves it into the played position. For declarer and defenders, these are basically equivalent, but dummy is different because there are two separate steps.

 

I think 42A3 is just describing the physical movement, the same as the "after which" clause in 45B.

He plays the cards of the dummy as declarers agent as directed (see Law 45F if dummy suggests a play).

It's no more than the issue of distinguishing between when "play" is being used as a term of art and when it isn't. Essentially, throughout Law 45 it is. In its second use (the noun) in Law 42A3 it is as well. But that doesn't mean that its first use there (the verb) is so, and there's no reason to take this as either determinative or particularly indicative of the construction to be placed on Law 45B, which is a clear enough statement in itself.

 

None of this is to say that Law 45B couldn't be made clearer, and I agree with Vampyr on this (and about the earlier proposed alternative).

[aguahombre]

I simply want higher powers to make it clear to all of us the intent and interpretation on whether a card called verbally by declarer is deemed played then, or not until dummy has at least started to remove the card from dummy's remaining cards.

 

I don't have a strong opinion on this - only that I seek clarification.

What you received was not from higher powers. It was a misinterpretation of the words. In real life, appellate courts get to do that and thus create their own legislation. In the ACBL, there only is a committee which gets to do that.

 

It is much more normal and clear to write: Declarer plays a card from dummy by naming the card. Dummy then places the card in a position to indicate it has been played.

Indeed that would have been much clearer. It would still establish that the card is "played" when named, and help those who might not understand "after which".

[pran]

Believe it or not, the following question is absolutely relevant here:

 

Declarer won the last trick in his own hand and then asks for a specific card from dummy (and the card is indeed in dummy).

 

Dummy now says "the lead is from your own hand partner (or words to that effect).

 

How do you rule?

 

Have you ever yourself as dummy made any statement to that effect? (I must admit I have more than once.)

 

I hope everybody is aware that if a card is played from dummy at the moment declarer names it then the above action by dummy is a severe violation of Law 43A1{b} ("may not") which should always result in a PP?

 

 

edited: Sorry a line dropped off in my original post.

[aguahombre]

Believe it or not, the following question is absolutely relevant here:

 

Declarer won the last trick in his own hand and then asks for a specific card from dummy (and the card is indeed in dummy).

 

Dummy now says "the lead is from your own hand partner (or words to that effect).

 

How do you rule?

 

Have you ever yourself as dummy made any statement to that effect? (I must admit I have more than once.)

 

I hope everybody is aware that if a card is played from dummy at the moment declarer names it then the above action by dummy is a severe violation of Law 43A1{b} ("may not") which should always result in a PP?

 

 

edited: Sorry a line dropped off in my original post.

Yes, the card is played. Yes, Dummy has violated the rules; he is only allowed to prevent Declarer leading from the wrong hand and that ship has passed when Declarer named thus played the card.

 

The opponents could accept the lead or insist Declarer lead from his own hand.

 

If Dummy gets a PP for doing what he did, in your world, fine. If he gets a warning, fine.

[blackshoe]

Let me be clear - I thought, until two different individuals, including Dan Plato, from ACBL told me differently, that due to the ", after which" in Law 45B the card was immediately deemed played when verbally called by declarer. This also appears to be blackshoe's contention and also a post many years ago I saw from bluejak seems to indicate (at least back then) a similar viewpoint.

 

I simply want higher powers to make it clear to all of us the intent and interpretation on whether a card called verbally by declarer is deemed played then, or not until dummy has at least started to remove the card from dummy's remaining cards.

 

I don't have a strong opinion on this - only that I seek clarification.

Yeah, well, my experience with ACBL is that's not going to happen. The higher power who should make this clear is the LC, and frankly I have no idea how to get them to do so.

[blackshoe]

If Dummy gets a PP for doing what he did, in your world, fine. If he gets a warning, fine.

I don't know about anyone else, but in my world, a warning is a PP — and next time it happens the PP will be in MPs or IMPs. If that doesn't happen, then warnings are a waste of breath.

[aguahombre]

I don't know about anyone else, but in my world, a warning is a PP — and next time it happens the PP will be in MPs or IMPs. If that doesn't happen, then warnings are a waste of breath.

I find it hard to accept the idea that a warning is a penalty. When I am penalized I lose something. When I am warned I gain something.

[blackshoe]

I find it hard to accept the idea that a warning is a penalty. When I am penalized I lose something. When I am warned I gain something.

Well, if you insist, then I guess we stop issuing warnings and go directly to penalties in MPs or IMPs.

[aguahombre]

Well, if you insist, then I guess we stop issuing warnings and go directly to penalties in MPs or IMPs.

That does not follow from what I said. I gain from a warning by being educated for next time and not being penalized. That is a good thing. I guess what you are saying is that if I won't feel bad about being warned you have to penalize.

[BudH]

Yeah, well, my experience with ACBL is that's not going to happen. The higher power who should make this clear is the LC, and frankly I have no idea how to get them to do so.

 

Perhaps contact should be made with some members of the ACBL Laws Commission on this subject:

 

Mr. Howard Weinstein

Mr. Robb Gordon

Mr. Allan Falk

Mr. Aaron Silverstein

Mr. Ron Gerard

Mr. Chip Martel, Chairman

Mr. Peter Boyd

Mr. Matt Koltnow

Mr. Chris Compton

Mr. Eric Rodwell

Mr. Matt Smith

Ms. Rebecca Rogers

Mr. Roger Stern

Mr. Alvin Levy

Mr. Adam Wildavsky, Vice-Chairman