Double? Overcall 1NT or even Pass?

[Wackojack]

[hv=pc=n&n=sakqhat3dqt62cj54&d=w&v=b&b=4&a=1c]133|200[/hv]

 

My partner held this hand and doubled for take-out. At the time I thought he should have overcalled 1NT but now I am re-considering.

 

Our opponents were playing Acol 12-14 no trump. This means that the 1♣ opening promises at least 4. If a 4 carder the hand will have 15-19 points unless some 4441's. Otherwise it will be a 5+ carder. So the odds favour 5 or more cards in opps club suit.

 

Overcalling 1NT without a stop now has big disadvantages. If partner does have a club stop we will be wrong siding the contract so it is likely that a no trump contract will be poor.

 

Thoughts?

 

Then again after you double what do you do if partner bids 2♥? 3♥? 2♣?

 

Thoughts?

[MrAce]

1 NT all day, any day.

[nige1]

[hv=pc=n&n=sakqhat3dqt62cj54&d=w&v=b&b=4&a=1c]133|200|

My partner held this hand and doubled for take-out. At the time I thought he should have overcalled 1NT but now I am re-considering. Our opponents were playing Acol 12-14 no trump. This means that the 1♣ opening promises at least 4. If a 4 carder the hand will have 15-19 points unless some 4441's. Otherwise it will be a 5+ carder. So the odds favour 5 or more cards in opps club suit. Overcalling 1NT without a stop now has big disadvantages. If partner does have a club stop we will be wrong siding the contract so it is likely that a no trump contract will be poor. Thoughts? Then again after you double what do you do if partner bids 2♥? 3♥? 2♣? Thoughts?[/hv]

IMO Double = 10, Pass = 9, 1N = 8. For the reasons explained by Wackojack (of which LHO will also be aware). It would be different if RHO played some weird canapé system like 2/1 where 1♣ is often bid on a 3-card or even 2-card suit. Double can create problems on the next round but double never promises 4+ cards in each of the other suits.

1 NT all day, any day.

If RHO had opened 1♠ (playing 2/1) would Mr Ace still overcall 1N with the black suits reversed?

[aguahombre]

I original thought "1NT, any day, all day." Then, I read the conditions in the OP. Close, IMO between Double and Pass with my 16 working count; but "working" for what? Might choose to let this one go. Then I won't have to answer the OP's follow-up questions after I Doubled.

[whereagles]

If RHO had opened 1♠ (playing 2/1) would Mr Ace still overcall 1N with the black suits reversed?

 

Dunno about him, but I might.

[eagles123]

I also think 1N is pretty clear. pass looks so weedy and X looks all wrong

[MrAce]

@Aguaman: You are correct, I did not read carefully the conditions given by OP.

 

@Nige1: No I would not overcall 1 NT over 1♠ with black suits reversed.

[iandayre]

I would double. As for the follow ups, at IMPS I would bid 3C over 2H or 2C. I would pass 3H. At matchpoints I would probably pass 2H, otherwise the same actions.

[1eyedjack]

Still 1N for me

[Jinksy]

It seems like a partnership Q to me. I would double with most Ps, because most of my Ps would assume I have a stop for 1N, and raise straight to three with such as xxx xx AKJTxxx x, or just a smattering of points few of which are in the C suit.

 

If I'm playing with someone who I know will allow for me bidding 1N on hands like this, then I'll bid it.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

X, I dont like 1NT, but it is ok.

 

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[The_Badger]

A 1NT overcall should always carry a stopper in the ops bid suit. You have 16HCPs, 2 tens, 3 cards in both majors, so dbl. is the only sensible bid. Trying to work out hand distributions and from what side a hand should be played when only 1 player has bid is not logical. As for passing with this hand...enough said.

 

The hand does not have shortness in the ops. suit but it does have extra values to compensate.

[Wackojack]

My thoughts if I had this hand:

 

Overcall 1NT?

With Acol 12-14, RHO is very likely to have an unbalanced hand with 5 or more clubs. However, since I have ♣Jxx, even ♣Qx with partner will be a stop. If partner has a 5 card major he will transfer and we will find our fit. If partner has game values and a 4 card major he will, bid 2♣ and finding no 4 card major will bid 3NT. Say we do have a club stop. Then we need 8 top tricks to cash. This looks like a reasonable chance.

 

Double:

If partner has a 4 card major and no good stop in clubs as is likely, then we will be playing in a 4-3 major suit fit. IIf partner has a 5 card major all will be well in regard to the strain, but we need a good understanding of what strength is needed to bid 2♣, 2♥ or 3♥.

 

My conclusion: When partner has a 5 card major it will be much easier to gauge the contract level if partner overcall 1NT. When partner has a 4 card major there is still a good chance of no trumps playing better.

 

To those that do choose double: 2♣, 2♥, 3♥ what will these bids be showing and what action do you take?

[ggwhiz]

Tough hand in that anything could work or not.

 

The exception imo is 1nt. I've never played twice with a partner who loses the first 5 tricks (clubs here) after I bounced to 3nt.

 

Double then 2M by partner probably has game values but no idea if it's a doomed 4-3. Anything higher and game should be ok.

 

Pass could be good if partner balances with a major showing 5 but if they balance with a double you are in the same boat. If lho responds you can most often double next time and either bump them up or land in a safe level partscore. Maybe a better strategy at mp's than imps?

 

I would flip a coin on those 2 options.

[eagles123]

Say our club holding was qxx we could still lose first 5 tricks or whatever. Non expert view but think 1n is beyond clear

[ggwhiz]

1n is beyond clear

 

To each his own but "beyond clear" is an overbid when 1♣ almost always shows 5. I'll lean your way if it's 2 or 3 plus though.

[1eyedjack]

The way I viewed it, if 3N our way is the right spot, then overcalling 1N is likely to get you there where all other actions are much less likely to do so.

 

Furthermore, if we have game on our way, then 3N is heavy favourite to be the best of them.

 

If partner has no game interest then I am not too bothered about them cashing a few clubs against 1N, on which I can pitch losers until they let me in.

 

So the question for me is, am I going unilaterally to give up on 3N with my first call over 1C? Yes, I agree with the risks, and you could certainly have a better hand for 1N, but for me it remains the best of a bad bunch of options.

 

 

 

[fourdad]

I play that the X promise 4 hearts so I pass and wait.

[Wackojack]

Say our club holding was qxx we could still lose first 5 tricks or whatever. Non expert view but think 1n is beyond clear

 

Err..... does not "beyond clear" in modern jargon mean "more than clear"? This accords with your previous post saying "pretty clear" Then you talk about losing the first 5 tricks.

 

Perhaps I misunderstand and you meant to say that replace our Jxx with Qxx then if partner has nothing we can still lose the first 5 tricks. As said earlier Qx opposite Jxx is frozen.

[AreyHakaal]

A smooth PASS.There are almost 8 losers and does that Jack of clubs really count? The distribution is not good enough to make a take out double.However if partner does play the '"escape bids " when LHO makes a penalty double then I will certainly overcall 1NT.

[Wackojack]

I would double. As for the follow ups, at IMPS I would bid 3C over 2H or 2C. I would pass 3H. At matchpoints I would probably pass 2H, otherwise the same actions.

 

Thankyou. You are so far the only poster who has said what they would do for the follow-ups to the double. I am particularly interested in the types of hand that 2♥, 3♥ and 2♣ describes. Unless partner has a good idea of the types of hand these responses describe his next bid will be a shot in the dark. So here is something to knock down or endorse:

1♣-(x)-p-?

2♥ = 9-11 4 cards (or fewer with 5 cards)

3♥ = typically 8 losers invite opposite a min double promising 5 cards

2♣ = 12+ game force or not?

[whereagles]

There is no universal standard for those bids, but the following is textbook on some regions:

 

1♣ dbl pass ??

 

2♥ = 8-10 and 4 cards, OR 5-7 and 5 cards OR, 2-4 and 6 cards.

3♥ = guarantees 5 cards. 8-10 if 5 cards, 5-7 if 6 cards.

2♣ = 8+ if 44 majors, 11+ if only one 4-card major. Auto-forcing through 3M.

[aguahombre]

There is no universal standard for those bids, but the following is textbook on some regions:

 

1♣ dbl pass ??

 

2♥ = 8-10 and 4 cards, OR 5-7 and 5 cards OR, 2-4 and 6 cards.

3♥ = guarantees 5 cards. 8-10 if 5 cards, 5-7 if 6 cards.

2♣ = 8+ if 44 majors, 11+ if only one 4-card major. Auto-forcing through 3M.

Yeh, you a probably right about 2♥ and 2♣ being commonly treated as you say.

 

3♥, however, is debatable. I would assume something like Q 7th and out, and I recall another thread discussing that.

 

There are indeed answers to the OP's question about Doubler's continuations..not perfect of course, because the Double itself was ugly. The real problem is for Advancer himself after we perpetrated the Double (which we might have).

 

Will advancer's decision to compete at the 2-level after clubs are raised work out well? Perhaps not when his 4-bagger gets tapped in the Moysean. Or, having seen our Doubles before, will Pard just butt out?

[1eyedjack]

Thankyou. You are so far the only poster who has said what they would do for the follow-ups to the double. I am particularly interested in the types of hand that 2♥, 3♥ and 2♣ describes. Unless partner has a good idea of the types of hand these responses describe his next bid will be a shot in the dark. So here is something to knock down or endorse:

1♣-(x)-p-?

2♥ = 9-11 4 cards (or fewer with 5 cards)

3♥ = typically 8 losers invite opposite a min double promising 5 cards

2♣ = 12+ game force or not?

 

 

Well I did not give my follow-ups to X because X was not my choice.

These days it is not uncommon, and certainly my preference, for cue bid and beyond (here 2C+) to be a transfer, showing 4+ cards in the next suit up and at least the values for a non-forcing natural jump shift. Double jumps, ie 3H, are up for grabs, but I play it as a long suit akin to a pre-empt.

 

There is (at least) one hand type that is bad for the method, which is a hand that is just worth a jump shift and has 4-4 in both unbid majors. That might in classical methods be handled via a cue bid and pass partner's major (assuming non-forcing). In the above method you have to pick a major.

 

 

 

[gszes]

X marks the spot

 

AKQ ATx xxxx xxx how many would pass with this hand over acol 1c?

I am not one of those and do to show beauty is in the eye of the

beholder QT J in the minors is not enough extra to get me to consider

1n.

 

I do not want to give up the 1 level with my less than perfect shape and

I am not overly concerned with missing (and maybe wrongsiding) 3n. Pass

leaves me feeling woozy and there are still 24 hands to play:) Just how much

do we want our partner to protect us in PO seat?

 

for me responder bidding at the

2 level = 7+ to 10-

2c = 7+ with 44 in the majors (forcing to 2M) OR 10+ with only only 1M forcing to

2N

3 level I like to reserve this for weak hands with long (6+) suits that are headed

by the A or K making 3n/4M an easy bid on occasion and at the very least warning

the doubler we may be in our last best spot. This requires many strong hands to go

through 2c but it seems to be worth it.

 

x = 9 1n = 5 pass = 3