humilities Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 [hv=d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1cp1d1sd]133|100[/hv]My partners and I use this double to show 4 Hearts, I *think* this is fairly standard. We play Walsh style (1D responder tends not to have a 4 card major) but still double if we would have bid 1H (ie. unbalanced). This begs the question, what does a direct 2H bid show? [hv=d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1cp1d1s2h]133|100[/hv]Options seem to be:1. Reverse values2. Reverse values with extra distribution (ie. 6-4)3. At least 6-5 in clubs and hearts I tend to favor option 3 (as it'll probably be easier to catch up on the other hands of the opponents raise spades) but I wanted to hear what others think. Thanks! PS: does this double have a name? If not I'd like to propose one... since it is sort of a negative double but opposite (made by opener instead of responder) then we should call it the opposite of a negative double, a positive double! (I have no idea if this is original or already been thought of by 100 other people, if so pls disregard) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 Dbl is called a "take-out dbl". 2♥ is a reverse yes. 5-4 will suffice.. what would you do with an offensive 3415? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
humilities Posted November 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 Dbl is called a "take-out dbl". 2♥ is a reverse yes. 5-4 will suffice.. what would you do with an offensive 3415? It would seem to me that double is unlimited, lessening the need to bid 2H with generic strong hands and allow more specificity. I guess that's what I'm asking... Dbl is called a "take-out dbl". To me "take-out dbl" by opener would imply some level of Diamond support/tolerance (ie. it would preclude 3415) but I may not understand that bid correctly. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vampyr Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 This begs the question, what does a direct 2H bid show? "Begs the question" does not mean what you think it does. As to the bridge content, I agree with the previous poster -- reversing values; you are forcing a partner who may have a minimum response to at least 2NT -- (and, of course, T/O double). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siegmund Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 Your treatment is a reasonable though far from universal one. As for names... since it is sort of a negative double but opposite (made by opener instead of responder) then we should call it the opposite of a negative double, a positive double Please don't call it that. The terms "positive double" and "negative double" have an ancient though now mostly forgotten history. Once upon a time, "positive double" was a generic term for doubles that showed values in the suit doubled -- that is, penalty and lead-directing doubles -- and "negative double" a generic term for bids that didn't -- that is, various flavors of takeout and artificial doubles. They survive in their original meaning today only in the "negative slam double" (doubling a slam to deny a defensive trick and demand that partner sacrifice unless he has two tricks) and the "positive slam double" (doubling a slam to promise one defensive trick, telling partner to sacrifice with no tricks and leave the double in with one more.) I think it would be perfectly clear to simply call your double in the present auction a negative double by opener. The term has been used (or abused, according to your taste) that way by people who play artificial club openings and double to show hearts in your auction, or after 1c-(p)-1s-(2d), etc. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nige1 Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 [hv=d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1cp1d1sd]133|100| Humilities wrote "My partners and I use this double to show 4 Hearts, I *think* this is fairly standard. We play Walsh style (1D responder tends not to have a 4 card major) but still double if we would have bid 1H (ie. unbalanced). Does this double have a name? If not I'd like to propose one... since it is sort of a negative double but opposite (made by opener instead of responder) then we should call it the opposite of a negative double, a positive double! (I have no idea if this is original or already been thought of by 100 other people, if so pls disregard)."IMO, Negative double is fine but I think this double should simply be for take out e.g. 2353, 1453, 1354, 1363, 0454 shape [/hv] [hv=d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1cp1d1s2h]133|100| Humilities wrote ""This begs the question, what does a direct 2H bid show? Options seem to be: 1. Reverse values. 2. Reverse values with extra distribution (ie. 6-4). 3. At least 6-5 in clubs and hearts. I tend to favor option 3 (as it'll probably be easier to catch up on the other hands of the opponents raise spades) but I wanted to hear what others think. Thanks!"IMO, option 3 is too rare to be considered. Given your use of double here, 2♥ might be used to show a strong hand which doesn't want to risk a penalty pass of a double.g. 0454, 0463, 0562, and even some hands with a singleton ♠ e.g. ♠ x ♥ K Q J x ♦ K Q J x x x x x ♣ x [/hv] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinksy Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 "Begs the question" does not mean what you think it does. It doesn't mean what anyone thinks it does: http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2290 Personally I think its colloquial use makes far more sense than clinging to a mistranslation for historical reasons. We can invite something to happen, and beg something to happen and these are almost synonymous, distinguished only by the level of urgency. Why then, if 'invites the question' is perfectly acceptable and means 'suggests the question', should 'begs the question' not mean 'strongly suggests the question'? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinksy Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 Dbl is called a "take-out dbl". 2♥ is a reverse yes. 5-4 will suffice.. what would you do with an offensive 3415? I'd double. How offensive can it be with three cards in their suit and one in P's and C suit that's not rebiddable? 2♥ to me shows extra dist, and 'values' at least in the sense of being willing to force to the three level (so suit quality is worth much more than HCPs). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 How offensive can a 5-4 be? I dunno.. maybe this? AxxKQJxxKQJTx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinksy Posted November 14, 2014 Report Share Posted November 14, 2014 So what goes wrong if you X with that? If by some chance P passes, you still expect it to defend well. If he bids something other than 2♦, you can do something encouraging next round. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdeegan Posted November 14, 2014 Report Share Posted November 14, 2014 You show a hand too good to advertise the most obvious holding for a double, so you must have something better plus at least 4♥, one assumes. You may have already have a proper place in mind to play, but that is your business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guido Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 The double is known as Snapdragon, at least in the parts of the U.S. where I have played. A Google search indicates that this is a common dame for this double. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vampyr Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 The double is known as Snapdragon, at least in the parts of the U.S. where I have played. A Google search indicates that this is a common dame for this double. No, I play Snapdragon doubles, and they don't apply when there has been a pass after the opening bid and before the auction gets to the doubler. It is made in fourth seat, NOT by the opening bidder. It typically shows 5 cards in the fourth suit and a doubleton in partner's suit. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biggerclub Posted November 23, 2014 Report Share Posted November 23, 2014 Well I was going to weigh in with snapdragon also . . . but I defer to those who actually play or play against it. I merely read Hughes' book on competitive auctions. As for OP's question beyond nomenclature . . . I marked other although I wanted to mark 2 of the choices. Either: 5-4 with reverse values or 6-5 with any values. If my OPPs were to ask me what this double meant (assuming my partner made it) . . . I would respond: "Partner would like me to do something intelligent. . . . For a switch." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WellSpyder Posted November 25, 2014 Report Share Posted November 25, 2014 So what goes wrong if you X with that? If by some chance P passes, you still expect it to defend well. If he bids something other than 2♦, you can do something encouraging next round.Errm, doesn't that rather beg invite the question of what you do if partner does bid 2♦? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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