If Only the Jack Was The Queen!

[eagles123]

so this hand came up on BBO last night p and opps are all good players

 

[hv=pc=n&w=sj85haq643d7ca983&e=sak43hkjt82da82ct&d=s&v=b&b=7&a=p1hp2n(GF%20Hearts)p3d(Short)p4np5sp7hppp]266|200[/hv]

 

 

unfortunatley the spade Queen didn't fall doubleton.

 

 

I think maybe I over-valued my hand but I thought we have all the keycards and my Diamond holding is pretty good so why not bid grand!!

 

my question is, how can I/we bid this better?

 

Thanks,

 

Eagles

 

ps. BBO results: 7H - 1 (us)

3N + 1

6H =

everyone else 4h + 2 :D

[ahydra]

First thoughts are: You surely have to cater to 3514s and 3613s (not to mention hands with diamond voids) before jumping straight to 7H. Thinking about the possibilities - well, you've nowhere enough power to make 6NT, so the obvious 6S is out of the question; partner would still sign off with the same hand but SQ instead of SJ if you bid 5NT; and 6C can't be right because with a singleton in your hand you don't give a damn about clubs.

 

So that leaves only one choice: 6D. Partner might get puzzled, sure, given he's already specified his diamond holding. But it's clearly asking for more than is shown already. Partner has to figure out why you're not asking about clubs and why you can't ask about spades and deduce somehow that he needs DK or SQ to bid 7. The former is fairly easy - you're implying the ace, so singleton DK is an extra trick - but the SQ is real deep stuff :/

 

On a simpler note you could go slower over 3D. Just bid 3H waiting and partner signs off in 4H with his minimum (sub-minimum, even, but he has good shape and aces so calling it sub-minimum is rather harsh). Now you can probably guess that grand isn't a good idea and just go via Blackwood to 6H. Of course if 3H demands cues then 4C-4D; 4H gets you to the same place.

 

ahydra

[Tramticket]

The 1H opener is not particularly to my taste - though most probably will open it. I also prefer a 4C splinter to Lebensohl, this will allow partner to be better involved in the conversation.

 

As it happens I think the contract can be made! Ruff clubs to isolate the menace against South and squeeze South in the black suits!

[eagles123]

my hand is way too strong for a splinter

 

ps contract can't be made, GIB says - 1 on any lead

[eagles123]

First thoughts are: You surely have to cater to 3514s and 3613s (not to mention hands with diamond voids) before jumping straight to 7H. Thinking about the possibilities - well, you've nowhere enough power to make 6NT, so the obvious 6S is out of the question; partner would still sign off with the same hand but SQ instead of SJ if you bid 5NT; and 6C can't be right because with a singleton in your hand you don't give a damn about clubs.

 

So that leaves only one choice: 6D. Partner might get puzzled, sure, given he's already specified his diamond holding. But it's clearly asking for more than is shown already. Partner has to figure out why you're not asking about clubs and why you can't ask about spades and deduce somehow that he needs DK or SQ to bid 7. The former is fairly easy - you're implying the ace, so singleton DK is an extra trick - but the SQ is real deep stuff :/

 

On a simpler note you could go slower over 3D. Just bid 3H waiting and partner signs off in 4H with his minimum (sub-minimum, even, but he has good shape and aces so calling it sub-minimum is rather harsh). Now you can probably guess that grand isn't a good idea and just go via Blackwood to 6H. Of course if 3H demands cues then 4C-4D; 4H gets you to the same place.

 

ahydra

 

thanks great advice

[ahydra]

The 1H opener is not particularly to my taste - though most probably will open it. I also prefer a 4C splinter to Lebensohl, this will allow partner to be better involved in the conversation.

 

Lebensohl? Do you mean Jacoby?

 

ahydra

[Tramticket]

Lebensohl? Do you mean Jacoby?

 

ahydra

[Tramticket]

Yes Jacoby

[whereagles]

my question is, how can I/we bid this better?

 

Yes. Instead of

 

 

1♥ 2NT

3♦ 4NT

5♠ 7♥

 

you could try

 

 

1♥ 2NT

3♦ 4NT

5♠ 5NT (got any extras?)

6♥ (not really)

[Wackojack]

First thoughts are: You surely have to cater to 3514s and 3613s (not to mention hands with diamond voids) before jumping straight to 7H. Thinking about the possibilities - well, you've nowhere enough power to make 6NT, so the obvious 6S is out of the question; partner would still sign off with the same hand but SQ instead of SJ if you bid 5NT; and 6C can't be right because with a singleton in your hand you don't give a damn about clubs.

 

So that leaves only one choice: 6D. Partner might get puzzled, sure, given he's already specified his diamond holding. But it's clearly asking for more than is shown already. Partner has to figure out why you're not asking about clubs and why you can't ask about spades and deduce somehow that he needs DK or SQ to bid 7. The former is fairly easy - you're implying the ace, so singleton DK is an extra trick - but the SQ is real deep stuff :/

 

 

ahydra

 

Very neat. Yes I have read that after 4N key card a bid of 6 in a side suit asks for 3rd round control to bid the grand. As you say since a bid of 6♠ is out of the question, then 6♦ can be a substitute bid for 6♠ since the diamond shortage is already known. Great if a partnership has got that depth of inferential understanding. Very neat.

[aguahombre]

Very neat. Yes I have read that after 4N key card a bid of 6 in a side suit asks for 3rd round control to bid the grand. As you say since a bid of 6♠ is out of the question, then 6♦ can be a substitute bid for 6♠ since the diamond shortage is already known. Great if a partnership has got that depth of inferential understanding. Very neat.

Yeh, I wonder if anyone thought of it before looking at this hand? That is how some of my agreements with T come about -- after the fact; and then they never come up again. Sometimes we try an invention on the fly; sometimes it even works. 6 of the Splinter suit is really neat, now. But, I probably wouldn't have thought of it then.

[johnu]

The asking for queens is part of Spiral Scan after Keycard Blackwood, so if you're playing that, you would be golden. You would have to be on the same page about 6♦ being a substitute asking bid for spades.

[fourdad]

The 1H opener is not particularly to my taste - though most probably will open it. I also prefer a 4C splinter to Lebensohl, this will allow partner to be better involved in the conversation.

 

As it happens I think the contract can be made! Ruff clubs to isolate the menace against South and squeeze South in the black suits!

 

I absolutely agree that the culprit is the 1H open! That 1 point IS the difference between the J and the Q!!

[Antrax]

Or the W hand and the W hand with a ♦J singleton or ♣AJ8x etc.

[Trump Echo]

West's opening is suspect, but with my regular partner playing 2/1, I'd open 1 Heart as East. Not playing 2/1, I would pass.

 

With my regular partner, the bidding would go like this:

 

1H - 2S*

 

3C** - 3H***

 

4H**** 4NT

 

5H - 6H

 

All pass

 

 

*Partner, my hand is very strong, I have slam interest

 

**Okay. I have the Club Ace

 

***The trump suit is Hearts

 

****Partner, be warned, I have a bare bones minimum hand.

[Wackojack]

A matter of style of course but I think it is winning bridge to open all major suit 11 point 5431 hands with the exception of stiff honour, quacky or weak in long suits. This hand has aces in the long suits and 3514 is particularly good distribution to get you away in a possible competitive race.

[chasetb]

I love how a few people said the West hand is suspect for 1♥, though I know Goren would have opened that hand. I know, let's add the Q♦ so it has 13 HCP, enough for anybody to open!

Oh wait, that hand can't make 7...

 

I know, let's add the K♣!! No wait, still not good enough, so I'll add the J♣!!!

Unfortunately, I then am only slightly better than a 50/50 chance, which STILL isn't good enough for bidding 7...

 

 

 

Eagles, your hand was very good, but you need to be able to count to 13 tricks before you bid that grand (70% minimum). You needed to find out if partner had the Q♠, the K♦, or the KQ♣, any of which is golden for +2210. I can tell you that I don't personally know of anybody who could find out that information. On top of that, most people short of experts never even THINK of bidding 7, so in borderline situations go low and make your 6 for a good result. As your situation illustrates, most of the field didn't even get to 6, because they couldn't even find out about partner's shortness and 2 KC, or just couldn't picture how to make 12 tricks.

[neilkaz]

Chase's post is spot on.

 

Note that the response to RKCB showed two aces and the trump queen. This certainly makes it less than likely the PD holds the specific high cards needed for a grand since he has the Q of trumps. I make my grand slam try with 5NT and find out that PD has no kings and then we stop sensibly in 6♥.

[aguahombre]

I absolutely agree that the culprit is the 1H open! That 1 point IS the difference between the J and the Q!!

I assume you were joking. Would you also not open JXX AQXXX X AQXX? How about JXX AQXXX X AKXX?

[dave_beer]

First thoughts are: You surely have to cater to 3514s and 3613s (not to mention hands with diamond voids) before jumping straight to 7H. Thinking about the possibilities - well, you've nowhere enough power to make 6NT, so the obvious 6S is out of the question; partner would still sign off with the same hand but SQ instead of SJ if you bid 5NT; and 6C can't be right because with a singleton in your hand you don't give a damn about clubs.

 

ahydra

 

Alternatively you can play Kickback where 4♠ is the key-card ask when ♥ are trump. After the 5♥ response (2 keys + trump Q), a new suit response (as in Kantar's books on RKB) asks for 3rd round control but 5NT substitutes for the suit of the ask. This would also allow you to bid the grand opposite hands like xx-AQxxxx-x-Axxx or xx-AQxxx-x-Axxxx.

[Fluffy]

I don't find a way to unfold this because the suit is spades, if it was a minor there are third round control bid askings at the 6 level, but here 6♠ is too high, perhaps with kickback saving 1 step you could:

 

1♥-2NT

3♦-4♠ (blackwood)

5♥ (2 with queen)

 

now it should be something like...

 

5♠ = specificc kings ask

6♣ = third round club control ask

6♦= third round diamond control ask

5NT = third round spade control ask.

 

i never played kickback so I can't be sure what is the standard treatment, but there is barely just enough room for it.

[ahydra]

1♥-2NT

3♦-4♠ (blackwood)

5♥ (2 with queen)

 

now it should be something like...

 

5♠ = specificc kings ask

6♣ = third round club control ask

6♦= third round diamond control ask

5NT = third round spade control ask.

 

Third round diamond control ask is somewhat useless given we already know opener has second-round control. Hence my theory that it should ask for something extra not involving diamonds, sort of like a grand-slam last train.

 

ahydra

[mikeh]

Yes. Instead of

 

 

1♥ 2NT

3♦ 4NT

5♠ 7♥

 

you could try

 

 

1♥ 2NT

3♦ 4NT

5♠ 5NT (got any extras?)

6♥ (not really)

5N asking for extras? Why isn't it asking for Kings, as it would be for 99.999% of the bridge population?

 

There are auctions in which experts play 5N as seeking or conveying information other than King asking, but not usually in a keycard context :P

[mikeh]

As for the OP hand, the problem was that responder made a very common non-expert mistake. He launched into keycard even tho there was no way that the responses, given his methods, could tell him how many tricks his side could make.

 

Kickback helps, as has been pointed out, because it keeps the bidding one critical bid lower, allowing for 5N to be an ask in spades, but even very experienced players may not have that tool in their toolbox. The notion that bidding the known shortness is a spade substitute is sexy but my guess would be that even fewer players will have discussed this (tho some players could probably field it at the table).

 

Over 3♦, when keycard cannot give you the information, the answer, at least initially, is: don't keycard! Surely that concept isn't too tough?

 

In fact, it ought to be the default position. When thinking of keycarding, ask whether keycard gives you the information you need.

 

When the answer is 'no', as it clearly is here...I mean, with a stiff diamond opposite, the chances of 2 or fewer spades is low.....then don't keycard.

 

Here, I wouldn't bid 3♥: why bother? We will be looking for a useful spade holding, so let's start by telling partner about our spades.

 

1♥ 2N

3♦ 3♠

4♣ 4♦

4♥ 4♠

5♥ 6♥

 

Opener's hand is not bad enough to sign off over the unlimited 3♠ call. Yes, it is a minimum but it has A/A and the trump Q and a partner who wasn't turned off by the diamond shortness

 

However, over 4♦ opener has nothing to say so bids 4♥

 

Responder isn't stopping so he shows the second spade control. Even tho I play kickback, this isn't a kickback auction, since were I interested only in keycards over 4♣ I would have used kickback then. The fact that I cuebid and then moved over the signoff makes this another cuebid.

 

Opener hates his hand. Note that on this auction, with Qxx in spades, he's actually like his hand and would be bidding 6♥

 

Responder can now picture a spade issue....having shown AK, and having partner express a dislike of this hand opposite this information, the problem is clear.

[blue haze]

Since I am definitely among today's enlightened bidders, I insist that this vulnerable 3514 powerhouse 10 count is surely a mandatory opening. But you say "it's even better, you have the J of spades with xx supporting it ". Of course,how could I be so blind? I admit to not having updated my glasses (like I have my bidding ) to where I can see this "holding " as a value. However, my partner is also a very modern player and together we have found an infallible system whereby the manner in which we remove our cards from the bidding box indicates if we have a MODERN 1h - or a TRADITIONAL 1h. We have a complete array of bidding tools for all traditional openings, so we only need to temper our enthusiasm opposite MODERN BIDS. Our successes are just too numerous to list here, and we are busily checking discount fares for the next Bermuda Bowl. Only one small problem remains - SCREENS. However, we are very MODERN fellows so we will find a solution! Wish us luck please :) BLUE HAZE