kgr Posted February 27, 2005 Report Share Posted February 27, 2005 [hv=d=e&v=e&n=sqj965hj95dqj4c96&s=st43hkt874dat6ca8]133|200|Scoring: IMP(P)-P-(1♣)-1♠(P)-4♠-(DBL)-P(P)-REDBL[/hv]Partner left after this bidding. How do you rate these bids and which one was worst? [hv=d=w&v=b&w=sahak632daq654ckq&e=shjt987dt98cjt987]266|100|Scoring: MP2NT-(3♠)-4♥-(P)4NT-(P)-5♣-(P)5♥-All pass[/hv] Parter said after this bidding: "u r not adv. I leave"; And left in the middle of a tounement. Which of these bids would you really hate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flame Posted February 27, 2005 Report Share Posted February 27, 2005 I really dont like the bids, i can understand partner who left you because i would have been angry too although i dont think i would leave in a middle of a turney but i would suffer alot. of all the bids 2nt is by far the worse, not only its very very bad bridgly, its also a bid that say you play alone, you dont need a partner, dont need to show ur real shape, no need to find fits, and dont want to take the chance that partner will declarer, for me this bid is offending. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MickyB Posted February 27, 2005 Report Share Posted February 27, 2005 North made a dodgy overcall, but it isn't as bad as South's subsequent jumping around. West showed a balanced hand when he was 5-5, then tried to catch up when he found a fit... awful! A 4NT bid doesn't exist on that sequence. East didn't do anything wrong, his hand would be more interesting if he had to decide between bidding his 2nd suit and showing his number of aces on the 2nd round! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotShot Posted February 27, 2005 Report Share Posted February 27, 2005 [hv=d=e&v=e&n=sqj965hj95dqj4c96&s=st43hkt874dat6ca8]133|200|Scoring: IMP(P)-P-(1♣)-1♠(P)-4♠-(DBL)-P(P)-REDBL[/hv]Partner left after this bidding. How do you rate these bids and which one was worst?Well I can accept both pass/1♥ as first bid from south, this is borderline. But i don't like the 1♠ of north, this is to weak. It would need at least 8 HCP and I would expect some distributional points to it. Rising to 4♠ is to much, partner can have a hand like the one shown. One or two HCP more won't make game either. I wonder what redbl could be, it makes no sence. Dealer: West Vul: Both Scoring: MP ♠ A ♥ AK632 ♦ AQ654 ♣ KQ ♠ [space] ♥ JT987 ♦ T98 ♣ JT987 2NT-(3♠)-4♥-(P)4NT-(P)-5♣-(P)5♥-All pass Parter said after this bidding: "u r not adv. I leave"; And left in the middle of a tounement. Which of these bids would you really hate?2NT would not have been my choice, but i don't have a problem with any of these bids. Guess 5♥ will be made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted February 27, 2005 Report Share Posted February 27, 2005 [hv=d=e&v=e&n=sqj965hj95dqj4c96&s=st43hkt874dat6ca8]133|200|Scoring: IMP(P)-P-(1♣)-1♠(P)-4♠-(DBL)-P(P)-REDBL[/hv]Partner left after this bidding. How do you rate these bids and which one was worst? Dealer: West Vul: Both Scoring: MP ♠ A ♥ AK632 ♦ AQ654 ♣ KQ ♠ [space] ♥ JT987 ♦ T98 ♣ JT987 2NT-(3♠)-4♥-(P)4NT-(P)-5♣-(P)5♥-All pass Parter said after this bidding: "u r not adv. I leave"; And left in the middle of a tounement. Which of these bids would you really hate?on #1 i really dislike the 1S overcall... i don't like the 4S bid either, i'd bid 2H... the jump seems needless, partner didn't open he overcalled... i could sorta understand it if you thought they had a vulnerable game on, but there's no reason to think so on #2 i probably wouldn't open 2nt, but after that i don't see a lot to criticize... i will say that anyone who says what your partner said and leaves in the middle of a game or tourney is wrong and should be made aware of that fact Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david_c Posted February 27, 2005 Report Share Posted February 27, 2005 On the first hand, I don't like 1♠ much, but it's not criminal. South's 4♠ bid looks bad, but he does have a genuine problem - I once bid 2♣ on a hand like this and ended up playing there, so I never do this now unless I can be sure of my partner. But the redouble is terrible: South had no reason to expect that 4♠ was a good contract even before the double came in. On the second hand, I really dislike 2NT as an opening bid. An opening 2NT is not a compromise between a 1-level bid and 2♣ - it shows a balanced hand. I don't mind if my partner wants to bid an off-shape 2NT sometimes, but with 5-5 that is going too far. I actually think it's reasonable to go for slam when partner bids 4♥. So, bid 6♥ - it doesn't need much more than a diamond finesse even opposite the 2-count that partner provides on this occasion. But the fact that you're missing the ♣A shouldn't put you off at all: if anything it makes partner more likely to have the ♦K. It's generally considered poor bridge to bid Blackwood and then sign off at the 5-level despite missing only one ace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted February 27, 2005 Report Share Posted February 27, 2005 [hv=d=e&v=e&n=sqj965hj95dqj4c96&s=st43hkt874dat6ca8]133|200|Scoring: IMP(P)-P-(1♣)-1♠(P)-4♠-(DBL)-P(P)-REDBL[/hv]Partner left after this bidding. How do you rate these bids and which one was worst? The first hand is a series of bidding mistakes by SOUTH (so i hope you were north). First South passed an opening hand. This distorts his bidding because now, over 1S overcall, he has no way short of leaping to game to show that he has an opening hand. in light of the double, he wanted to confirm his opening hand with a redouble. Why he didn't (or you didn't) open 1H I don't know. South should issue a strong game try maybe 2♣ and then follow up with more spades. How about north? He has 7 of the worse points you ever seen. But a spade bid might be crucial to get partner off to a useful opening lead aginst 3NT or to find cheap sacrafice at these colors. I would not overcall 1♠, but I can understand it and don't find it terrifically horrible. If you bid like this as south, i guess i could understand your partner's unhappyness, but not the way he expressed it. If you were north, you are better off without him if he not only bids this way, but acts this way as well.. Dealer: West Vul: Both Scoring: MP ♠ A ♥ AK632 ♦ AQ654 ♣ KQ ♠ [space] ♥ JT987 ♦ T98 ♣ JT987 2NT-(3♠)-4♥-(P)4NT-(P)-5♣-(P)5♥-All pass Parter said after this bidding: "u r not adv. I leave"; And left in the middle of a tounement. Which of these bids would you really hate? I am not thrilled with 2NT on this west's hand. Not because of the singleton, that is ok.. but because with 5-5 and so many controls, this hand is TOO STRONG for 2NT. The 4H bid was creative and deserved a better fate. As west, hearing partner bid 4H would be just too much for me. Sure i would ask for aces, and hearing none, i would simply bid 6H. 6H wil make if hearts are 2-1 with 1D, 1S, 4C, 5H, and a DIAMOND ruff in WEST (after three diamond pitches on long clubs). I suspect hearts have to be 2-1 for with 12 spades between them and a void in hearts, they would have bid again. So here, i find no fault with EAST, and two small flaws with west (and the first flaw only depends upon how strong he plays his 2NT opening bids). ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted February 27, 2005 Report Share Posted February 27, 2005 Opening 2NT with the second had is incomprehensible, mistating both shape and playing strength. Equally significant, there' no good reason to do so. Its not like you're expecting rebid problems. Finally, the auction suggests that the opener has a very limited idea regarding "captaincy". A 2NT opening is meant to be a descriptive bid that will permit partner to accurately judge the combined assets of the two hands... As to the first hand. The 4♠ raise is highly questionable. Whoever made the bid doesn't understand overcalls opposite a passed hand. Unlike Inquiry I don't think that the South hand is a mandatory opening. Pairs playing a sound opening style might very well decide to pass this eight loser hand despite the nice controls. The Redouble is suicidal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgr Posted February 27, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2005 Sorry, switched the ♠ and ♥ of West on the 2nd. His hand was:AK632AAQ654KQHis bidding was as given. I was North on the 1st hand. I know I was weak for the 1♠ bid, but it is a bid that takes aways some bidding space, so it can be weak as this? (and I'm used to weak overcalls..probably too much :) I was East on the second hand. I didn't take 4NT as asking aces, but had to bid 5♣ anyway with this hand. I think that these hands show the biggest problem of BBO. It is very difficult to play serious bridge. On the first occasion that someone doesn't like the bidding or the play, they leave the table. Even if the are not right!! The second one was even in the middle of a tournement. What happens if this is reported to abuse? Wiil this player be refused immediatly? I think it should (ok, maybe one warning). I even don't ask anymore what my partner plays or how he signals. Maybe he will leave anyway after a few hands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flame Posted February 27, 2005 Report Share Posted February 27, 2005 As you can see i thought you were the one who opened 2nt. The fact that it was ur partner make sense to everything, someone who open 2nt might think you arent adv because he just donsnt know bridge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotShot Posted February 27, 2005 Report Share Posted February 27, 2005 Sorry, switched the ♠ and ♥ of West on the 2nd. His hand was:AK632AAQ654KQHis bidding was as given. In this case I don't think 4NT could be understood, if the plan was tp play NT, perhaps 5NT could be seen that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted February 28, 2005 Report Share Posted February 28, 2005 I do have some sympathy for South's initial pass. After all, he doesn't have a good rebid after a forcing 1NT response. For the rest, I agree with what others have said. This is an extreme case, and you might report him for leaving in the middle of a tournament. But I don't think abuse should be bothered with bidding theory. Send him an e-mail and kindly ask him te read what others have said about this issue. He probalbly needs to adjust his level to "novice". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdulmage Posted February 28, 2005 Report Share Posted February 28, 2005 On first hand, South must open the bidding, he is not vul and has 2 quick tricks. This is a bidder's game. So opening 1♥ would have been easier. I am betting the bidding would have gone. (P)-1♥-(2♣)-2♥-(3♣)-All Pass. Much easier to stay in the boat that way. However, bidding it up to 4♠ is absolutely silly. On the second hand, I am enclined to open 2♣ strong and artifical. Bidding would probably become 2♣-(2♠)-3♥-(P)-4NT-(P)-5♣-(P)-5♥-All pass. So nothing different there. With 2NT open however, you may miss a minor slam next time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luis Posted February 28, 2005 Report Share Posted February 28, 2005 I can't tell you how much I hate players that pass with 11 and then take some dramatical measures to show that they have a lot of values. It's absolutely criminal in my opinion. Why don't they just open the hand and stop the madness? In the first hand south should be executed after a very very short trial. In the second hand the 2NT opening as flame said means "I don't care about my pd" If it were a question of leaving or staying I would say that hand #2 is worst because it shows desire to play alone. #1 is just the usual insanity of players that decide not to open and then realiza they have an opening in the middle of the aucition. Yikes! Luis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luis Posted February 28, 2005 Report Share Posted February 28, 2005 Opening 2NT with the second had is incomprehensible, mistating both shape and playing strength. Equally significant, there' no good reason to do so. Its not like you're expecting rebid problems. Finally, the auction suggests that the opener has a very limited idea regarding "captaincy". A 2NT opening is meant to be a descriptive bid that will permit partner to accurately judge the combined assets of the two hands... As to the first hand. The 4♠ raise is highly questionable. Whoever made the bid doesn't understand overcalls opposite a passed hand. Unlike Inquiry I don't think that the South hand is a mandatory opening. Pairs playing a sound opening style might very well decide to pass this eight loser hand despite the nice controls. The Redouble is suicidal Ok Richard but once you decide not to open (I can live with that) you can't jump to 4s like a maniac on the Txx and your never shown values. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mycroft Posted March 1, 2005 Report Share Posted March 1, 2005 Agreeing with most, I find XX to be suicidal. The *only* way this bid makes sense on a flat 11 is if south has never seen a sub-opening overcall. No, I won't go that far. As long as south has never *made* a sub-opening overcall. And then the opponents are stealing south blind. So, let me guess, with this auction, *all the finesses* are off, and so we're going down even if north adds the SA to his hand. And south knows this immediately after the double. And... Okay, so I've opened 2NT on a 1444 before. Once. But 1-5-5-2? What, is he worried about being passed out in 1H? I want to see 2NT-3H; 3S-4S. Really, I do. On KTxxxx and a heart stiff. Transfers so that the 2NT opener gets to play it. Or 2NT-(3S)-X. Doesn't that sound like fun. And if it was 5152, and 2NT-(3S)-4H, well, see my first auction. You don't get the joy of forcing the big hand to play the mess, but that's okay. And if he's complaining that east didn't pass so he could double... I agree with the general tenor of remarks here - if you were south, and west, and bid like that, I'd find a way to leave (not quite that brusquely or impolitely, and not in a tournament, but yeah). But *them* leaving? Because you're not good enough? Well, we all know what expert means.Michael (self-rating: "Experts play with me". Unfortunately, so do "experts".) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted March 1, 2005 Report Share Posted March 1, 2005 [hv=d=e&v=e&n=sqj965hj95dqj4c96&s=st43hkt874dat6ca8]133|200|Scoring: IMP(P)-P-(1♣)-1♠(P)-4♠-(DBL)-P(P)-REDBL[/hv]Partner left after this bidding. How do you rate these bids and which one was worst? Dealer: West Vul: Both Scoring: MP ♠ A ♥ AK632 ♦ AQ654 ♣ KQ ♠ [space] ♥ JT987 ♦ T98 ♣ JT987 2NT-(3♠)-4♥-(P)4NT-(P)-5♣-(P)5♥-All pass Parter said after this bidding: "u r not adv. I leave"; And left in the middle of a tounement. Which of these bids would you really hate? Before looking at the other answers: 1) 1S, 4S and redouble are all bad, IMO. It's hard to say which is worse, but I guess south gets twice the blame because he made twice as many questionable calls. 2) Opening 2NT is off the wall crazy. And, I would agree it is evidence that whoever made the bid is not advanced (especially in combination with bidding on over 4H). Of course, that's no reason to get up and leave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgr Posted March 1, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2005 Looking at the answers let me clarify:On both hands it was my partner (two different) who did make the most bidding problems (I made 1S overcall which was a bit lite). I did NOT have an issue with their bidding. I didn't like it, but I can accept it in a one-time partnership. The problem I have is that they tell you that you bid wrong and they leave after the bidding. One of them even in the middle of a tournement.This is for me the biggest problem of BBO (..of on-line bridge). People insult you and leave the table after the slightest bid that they don't like. It never happened to me in f2f bridge that somebody left before the end of the evening.I'm not sure that everybody on BBO did read the rules (I'm sure not everybody follows them). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted March 1, 2005 Report Share Posted March 1, 2005 Looking at the answers let me clarify:On both hands it was my partner (two different) who did make the most bidding problems (I made 1S overcall which was a bit lite). I did NOT have an issue with their bidding. I didn't like it, but I can accept it in a one-time partnership. The problem I have is that they tell you that you bid wrong and they leave after the bidding. One of them even in the middle of a tournement.This is for me the biggest problem of BBO (..of on-line bridge). People insult you and leave the table after the slightest bid that they don't like. It never happened to me in f2f bridge that somebody left before the end of the evening.I'm not sure that everybody on BBO did read the rules (I'm sure not everybody follows them). The world of pick-up partners often stinks. It is true that partners should not leave in the middle of the game, but they will. Just like in ftf bridge partners shold not criticize partner, but they do. The answer, in online or ftf, is to find compatible partners. It may take a little while, but it is worth the effort. Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted March 1, 2005 Report Share Posted March 1, 2005 Looking at the answers let me clarify:On both hands it was my partner (two different) who did make the most bidding problems (I made 1S overcall which was a bit lite). I did NOT have an issue with their bidding. I didn't like it, but I can accept it in a one-time partnership. The problem I have is that they tell you that you bid wrong and they leave after the bidding. One of them even in the middle of a tournement.This is for me the biggest problem of BBO (..of on-line bridge). People insult you and leave the table after the slightest bid that they don't like. It never happened to me in f2f bridge that somebody left before the end of the evening.I'm not sure that everybody on BBO did read the rules (I'm sure not everybody follows them). I happen to have no problem at all with the 1♠ overcall opposite a passed partner, so on board 1, you bid fine. I would also have no problem with a timid pass or an aggressive 2♠ at this vulnerability. On the second hand, I assume you are EAST from your statement. I actually prefer "dbl" to 4♥ as negative. These "takeout doubles" can always be left in, so your parnter with five spades to AKxxx will have no problem with pass, and with five hearts to AKxxx will have no problem bidding on the the laydown slam. But dbl after 2NT opening as negative is rare agreement (more common after 1NT opening). But as I have said many times here, for me, all my non-conventional doubles until before we have found a fit are for takeout. The higher the level, the more likely partner will leave in. Now, as for your "parnters" they really need to take a course not only in good manners, but also in bidding theory.... how in the world can they be uspet with you when they themselves bid so horribly. I find it fitting that your bids were fine, and it was your rude partner's who made the horrible bids. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbleighton Posted March 1, 2005 Report Share Posted March 1, 2005 "The world of pick-up partners often stinks. It is true that partners should not leave in the middle of the game, but they will. Just like in ftf bridge partners shold not criticize partner, but they do. The answer, in online or ftf, is to find compatible partners. It may take a little while, but it is worth the effort." I completely agree. I used to play with pickup partners for half of my bridge. Now I rarely play pickup. Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mycroft Posted March 1, 2005 Report Share Posted March 1, 2005 The problem with pickup is this: 1) There aren't many PEBKACs out there (in this case, literally - the problem exists between keyboard and chair. I'd like to use another word, but it's forbidden, even if exquisitely accurate). Say 1 in 30. 2) If you play pickup long enough, you're going to hit one or two of them. And they are extremely annoying, especially the ones that don't get it (like I saw at an indi I kibitzed last night). So, one of two things happen:3a) You get frustrated enough and leave the scene (be it BBO or the local club). This removes you from the pickup pool.3b) You play pickup a bit more with the intention of finding a couple of sympas, hook up with them and play only with them (and their other partners, as you meet them as opponents). This takes *both of you* out of the pickup pool.4) This happens to a lot of people in the pickup pool. But the PEBCAKs never find a compatible partner - that's why they're always playing pickup. So...1, again) There aren't many PEBCAK's out there. Say one in 28... Oh, and me? I'm part of the problem, too. I chose 3b, initially, but with my increased RL commitments, it's wavering more to 3a, online and 3b at the local. I know it, but I get really upset at twittery, and I don't like how I act when I'm upset. One other note: it's been determined (not only online bridge, but IM, IRC, Usenet for 20 years) that people, by and large, are more likely to be obnoxious online than FtF. Part of it is that the non-verbal cues that ameliorate the nastiness are gone, and part of it is that the brain doesn't realize that the other person is a person - training that is most proper netiquette. So the ones that are too obnoxious to get a regular partner at the club come online, and have 4000 people that they haven't pissed off yet, and treat them *worse* than they do the local club members. Which doesn't help matters any, and is why the "you will be polite, and here's why" has been from the start much more in-your-face on BBO than in the local. Because the makers of this great product are smart, Net-experienced, and able to learn the lessons of history. And we all know how common that is!Michael. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beatrix45 Posted March 28, 2005 Report Share Posted March 28, 2005 :) Online bridge games are full of emotional cripples who are liable to do and/or say anything. On the first hand, the initial 1S overcall is too light, but the partner's bidding is insane. Raise to game with 10xx in trumps and a couple of outside cards??? Then redouble??? AAAAAAAAAArgh. The second hand is even more pitiful. Open 2NT with any form of 5-5-2-1 distribution??? Next ask for aces with a void???? If you did any of this (and I'm sure you didn't), you are not advanced. Nil illigitimo carborundum Trixie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Marlowe Posted April 1, 2005 Report Share Posted April 1, 2005 First of all, there is no excuse for bad behaviour,i.e. leaving the table in the middle of a tournament is much worser than any of your bids. Regarding the first hand:- The 1S overcall is aggressive, to aggressive for my liking- 4S is aggressive, to aggressive for my liking, even opposite someone who overcalls sound, one would believe, an invitation is sufficient with this bal. 11 count and 3 card support, but you found each other- RDBL is, ..., call the doctor At least your opponents did know, that the Red card in the bidding box was original designed to let the opponentepay Regarding the Second hand:- The 2NT opening is excentric, but the hand is hard to bid with a pickup, sometimes you need to risk it - 4H is slightly optimistic, to be nice, opposite a normal 2 NT, why bid 4H with a hand, were you would have signed of in 3H risking going down -2, when you could collect 200-800 beating 3S xed.- 4NT is ok, because one could expect a little bit more, than the garbage hand, and looking for 7H is sensible, but signing off in 5H is pointless, you got lucky, your risky 2 NT opening bit hit the treasure hidden at the end of the rainbow, partner did bid your 5 card suit, headed by AK, why not 6H? With kind regardsMarlowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Marlowe Posted April 1, 2005 Report Share Posted April 1, 2005 Sorry, switched the ♠ and ♥ of West on the 2nd. His hand was:AK632AAQ654KQHis bidding was as given. Hi, with the mayor suits switched, the "cleverness" of the 4H bid becomes even more obvious, because now will happen, what I have mentionedin my other post: 4H will go down, when you would have beaten 3S. Without further disscusion, nobody would understand 4 NTas a resue bid, and it is not needed, because 4H may wellbe your last playable spot, give partner a six card suit, which he should have, after all you promised only 2, andhe will just scramble home.So partner was right to sign of in 5H, he knows the partnership misses the Ace of Club and the King of Hearts. Comparing the 2NT opening bid, which is excentric, with the 4 H bid, which is overly hyper aggressive, I think both have a similar qualityand deserve each other. Just shake your shoulders and go on. With kind regardsMarlowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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