Do you leave this double in?

[Cthulhu D]

We got a great result on this board, but partner had an impossible decision to make. Do you leave this in?

 

[hv=pc=n&e=sj9652h7dj65cq965&d=s&v=b&b=7&a=1h(5cM)2s(Roman%20Jump%20Overcall%2C%20Spades%20and%20Clubs)4h4s5hdp]133|200[/hv]

 

Partners Roman Jump Overcall is overcall structure style, so Spades and Clubs limited to about 14 HCP 5/4 or better (either way around, though partner is more likely to have 5 clubs).

 

There is two ways to bid a strong hand with spades and clubs, the above is one, and the other is start with 2NT which in this situation would show a big hand with clubs and another - in the notes it's defined as a big two suiter that cannot start off with a power double (which would be 15+ semi balanced) or like 8.5+ playing tricks.

[helene_t]

5♠ for me.

[trevahound]

I don't think this is a forcing pass situation, so partner's double shouldn't have the same message it would if we were in a forcing pass. Tough problem. I'm pulling, but I would love to take less phantoms, so I shouldn't. Had the auction been the same with North bidding only 3♥, I think partner would be screaming "let's defend".

[aguahombre]

Pull to what? Maybe I should bid 6S. I know you gave the limitations of partner's first bid; but I think his double suggests a surprise in the expected tricks, not just that it was his turn.

[Cthulhu D]

Pull to what? Maybe I should bid 6S. I know you gave the limitations of partner's first bid; but I think his double suggests a surprise in the expected tricks, not just that it was his turn.

 

I'll edit this into the OP, but there are two ways to bid a big two suiter with clubs and diamonds - he can start like this, or can start with 2NT which in this situation would show a big hand with clubs and another - in the notes it's defined as a big two suiter that cannot start off with a power double (which would be 15+ semi balanced). I'm not sure if this would effect your decision.

[gszes]

Pull to what? Maybe I should bid 6S. I know you gave the limitations of partner's first bid; but I think his double suggests a surprise in the expected tricks, not just that it was his turn.

 

My imagination is failing me -- what kind of hand limited to 14 count do you expect

in order to make 6s a favorable contract?

[gszes]

5s

 

I know it feels "wrong" but with the double fit and totally weak defensive hand

it seems wrong to leave this x in. P cannot fail to x with A A/K and that is

probably insufficient to set 5h given our junk. Even if p has 3 aces we might

have a 10 card spade fit and one opp is void. We have too much junk when our

4s bid could have been significantly better. I have serious doubts that we can make

5s but there could be a slim chance which might keep the opps from x and helping

to downgrade the risk associated with 5s.

[aguahombre]

My imagination is failing me -- what kind of hand limited to 14 count do you expect

in order to make 6s a favorable contract?

AKQXX XXX V AJTXX seems to be on a hook thru the opening bidder. The double was Polish Lightner intending to lead his own void. AKXXX XXX V AKXXX might not be out of range for their agreements, either. The wording seems to include 5-5's, not just 4-5's.

[Cthulhu D]

5/5 is included yeah

[the_clown]

No way I am passing with the huge double fit. Partner's doubles shows just extra values, not neccesary a desire to defend.

[mgoetze]

Partner's doubles shows just extra values, not neccesary a desire to defend.

What's the point of showing "just extra values" on this hand? "Hey partner, guess what, 5♥ makes and 5♠ doesn't - but at least it's closer than you thought!"?

 

I'm struggling to see what double should be good for except to say "I have 3 tricks against 5♥."

[helene_t]

I don't believe that partner would bid 2♠ with 4/5 as well as with 5/4 when vulnerable. At the very least it must promise five clubs and ten black cards, but even a 2♠ bid that could be 4/6 as well as 5/5 is questionable.

 

We are obviously not in a forcing pass situation, so I think this should be an action double in which case pulling is clear. But I suppose the double could be played as more penalty oriented. Even then, I pull it. Not if it promises three defensive tricks but that would be a strange agreement.

[billw55]

Admittedly, looking at these cards, defending seems pretty grim. Pass requires a lot of trust in partner, but there is no reason he cannot hold ♥KQx and an ace, or three aces, etc. I grit my teeth and pass.

[the_clown]

What's the point of showing "just extra values" on this hand? "Hey partner, guess what, 5♥ makes and 5♠ doesn't - but at least it's closer than you thought!"?

 

I'm struggling to see what double should be good for except to say "I have 3 tricks against 5♥."

 

Partner doesnt know our actual hand. We may have a double fit hand like this or just good fit for spades and 1-1.5 defensive tricks. Bidding when we have defence and a stiff club will be a disaster.

 

What his double says is just that he doesnt think its right to defend 5♥ undoubled. I am actually happy that he doubled since I may well have passed 5♥ and now I can confidently bid 5♠ and expect to be at most -1.

[Cthulhu D]

I don't believe that partner would bid 2♠ with 4/5 as well as with 5/4 when vulnerable. At the very least it must promise five clubs and ten black cards, but even a 2♠ bid that could be 4/6 as well as 5/5 is questionable.

 

We are obviously not in a forcing pass situation, so I think this should be an action double in which case pulling is clear. But I suppose the double could be played as more penalty oriented. Even then, I pull it. Not if it promises three defensive tricks but that would be a strange agreement.

 

Yeah, our agreement is/was penalty. We were chatting in the post mortem because it was a tough decision.

 

The actual hand is uninteresting because your partner was operating and/or had lost touch with reality. In this specific case I had made asemi psyched in a terrible anti-partnership bid because they were on tilt and I figured south had a big hand. The less said about my subsequent decisions the better (like why am I even doubling? If my three tricks cash no one else is going to have had this auction so I will get a top anyway).

 

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South had a 5/5 two suited 20 count and there are always 10 tricks in hearts and 9 in spades. Obviously we were the only table to find the double fit so as soon as we bid 4S we had all the matchpoints

 

Edit: vvvvvvv to be clear it is me, I am the lunatic who came up with two spades then double - partner is much more solid!

[jogs]

 

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Your partner has a lot of imagination. An article written by Ed Manfield in TBW(1977) said a double in the direct seat is for penalties usually due to trump strength.

[the hog]

What's the point of showing "just extra values" on this hand? "Hey partner, guess what, 5♥ makes and 5♠ doesn't - but at least it's closer than you thought!"?

 

I'm struggling to see what double should be good for except to say "I have 3 tricks against 5♥."

 

Exactly. Pulling is a statement that you are playing with an idiot.

[billw55]

Are you serious that 5♠ did not get doubled?

[whereagles]

Dbl fit here, so 5♠ seems clear.

[mgoetze]

Partner doesnt know our actual hand. We may have a double fit hand like this or just good fit for spades and 1-1.5 defensive tricks. Bidding when we have defence and a stiff club will be a disaster.

And what do we do if we have a stiff club and NO defense? Then we have to guess which of bid and pass will give us 5% of the matchpoints, and which will give us 0%?

[gszes]

AKQXX XXX V AJTXX seems to be on a hook thru the opening bidder. The double was Polish Lightner intending to lead his own void. AKXXX XXX V AKXXX might not be out of range for their agreements, either. The wording seems to include 5-5's, not just 4-5's.

 

Your p x 5h with either of these two hands? hmmm seems wrong to me== but what do i know

[nige1]

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We got a great result on this board, but partner had an impossible decision to make. Do you leave this in?

Partners Roman Jump Overcall is overcall structure style, so Spades and Clubs limited to about 14 HCP 5/4 or better (either way around, though partner is more likely to have 5 clubs).

There is two ways to bid a strong hand with spades and clubs, the above is one, and the other is start with 2NT which in this situation would show a big hand with clubs and another - in the notes it's defined as a big two suiter that cannot start off with a power double (which would be 15+ semi balanced) or like 8.5+ playing tricks.[/hv]

IMO 5♠ = 10, 6♣ = 7 Pass = 6. If you pass, then the Hog's argument might be useful to try to convince the director that you didn't simply field partner's psych :)

[the hog]

IMO 5♠ = 10, 6♣ = 7 Pass = 6. If you pass, then the Hog's argument might be useful to try to convince the director that you didn't simply field partner's psych :)

 

Nigel I have no idea what this means at all. Where is this concept of a psyche coming from. Pd made a bid, herd my and doubled showing Aces and some defence in their suit. As I don't play with idiots I pass.By the way op, Roman jump are NOT made on 5-4 shapes.

 

 

[aguahombre]

Your p x 5h with either of these two hands? hmmm seems wrong to me== but what do i know

depends on what you think a double should mean by the black-suit bidder. I can't imagine it being anything like what he held, and would assume it showed a wonderful playing hand above the original 2S bid....which either one of those examples happens to be.

[Cthulhu D]

Nigel I have no idea what this means at all. Where is this concept of a psyche coming from. Pd made a bid, herd my and doubled showing Aces and some defence in their suit. As I don't play with idiots I pass.By the way op, Roman jump are NOT made on 5-4 shapes.

 

 

For better or worse we play this - http://www.fernside.com/bridge/TheOvercallStructure.html more or less over a major which suggests frequent 5+/4+. I am pretty positive about being able to bid it with 5/4 hands, it's a a huge increase in frequency - 4.05% for the 5+/4+ OR 4+/5+ option vs 2.99% for 5+/4+ always vs 0.77% for 5+/5+ always. As you can see from the frequency numbers, while bidding it 5+/4+ is a big winner over 5+/5+ from a frequency perspective (380% more often) and a minimal information cost to partner, it's less clear that 5+/4+ or 4+/5+ is better as it's only a 33% increase in frequency but a much more significant information loss.

 

Those frequency calculations are back of the envelop though and don't include the effects of RHO having 5+ M and 11-20 ish HCP though.

 

The more aggressive styles loses on the hands where the more conservative style would open, but gains on most hands where the more conservative style would pass (and in theory goes for huge penalties)

 

Over a minor, we play

 

(1C) - 1D/H/S as per the overcall structure or Canape overcalls, we're flip flopping about that

- 1NT Three suited takeout, 8-14 ish HCP

- 2C Diamonds + a major

- 2D WJO in a major

- 2H Both Majors Weak (assumed fit style)

- 2S Pre-empt in an unspecified suit (good hand if a major)

- 2NT Intermediate jump in diamonds w/ a club stop

- 3C Both majors, great offense

- 3D Intermediate jump in diamonds without a stop

- 3M Poor pre-empt

 

Credit to Mark Abraham for the ideas.