1NT and 2NT - 5 card Stayman

[fbear]

Whether you play a weak or strong NT, you may well open 1NT or 2NT with a 5 card major. I've often wondered about adapting Stayman to allow 5 card majors to be shown and wondered why someone hasn't bothered to devise one or if they have why it's not in widespread use.

 

May be there's a reason, but I think the following seems to do the job and my partner and I are happy with our results using it. If anyone would like to comment or offer suggestions, I'd appreciate it.

 

And if anyone would like to tell me why few pairs bother to try and find a 5 card major over 1NT I'd be interested too, I feel there must be a reason, but it escapes me.

 

I realise you lose 'Garbage Stayman' with the system below, but I think the advantages outweigh the loss.

 

I've tried to make the response structure similar to what a lot of pairs play over 2NT :

 

2NT-3C

?

 

3D = No 5 card major, but either 4 card major or 3 spades

3M = 5 cards

3N = Neither 4 or 5 card major and a doubleton spade

 

2NT-3C

3D-?

 

3M = 4 card suit (no puppet to make it consistent with the system over 1NT, but you could puppet if you like)

3N = to play

4H = 4 hearts and 5 spades (you know partner either has 4 hearts or 3 spades)

 

In addition, we play that 4H over 3D is pass/correct to 4S and the slower route is a slam try:-

 

2N-3C

3D-3H

3N-4S

 

 

You can play similarly over 1NT (with a slight 'wrinkle' to handle min/max hands with a doubleton spade) :

 

1NT-2C

?

 

2D = No 5 card major, but either a 4 card major or 3 spades or 2 spades (max HCP)

2M = 5 card suit

2N = Neither 4 or 5 card major and only 2 spades (minimum HCP)

 

1NT-2C

2D-?

 

2M = 4 card suit - Forcing to 2N

2N = Invitational

3 suit = natural 5 cards GF+

3N = To play

 

1NT-2C

2D-2H

?

 

2S = 4 cards

2N = denies 4 and 5 card major, min (and therefore 3 spades)

3S = denies 4 and 5 card major, max with 3 spades

3N = denies 4 and 5 card major, max with 2 spades

 

Cheers

 

Pete

[PhilKing]

You don't get out very much. Google puppet Stayman.

 

There are many versions of 5-card Stayman. Jallerton plays 7 different versions (or thereabouts) with his different partners.

 

To comment briefly on your version, it is fundamentally flawed in that you end up with the weak hand playing 4M with a 4-4 fit after the 2NT opening. This is going to cost you about an average of at least a third of a trick, which is pretty disastrous.

[wanoff]

I think it may be more common than you realise.

We play Stayman and 3♣- 5cd Stayman.

 

And yes, you lose bucket Stayman, half a bucket Stayman (eg Jxxx xxx Kxxxx x) and what do you do with 5/5 majors invite?

[fbear]

You don't get out very much. Google puppet Stayman.

 

There are many versions of 5-card Stayman. Jallerton plays 7 different versions (or thereabouts) with his different partners.

 

To comment briefly on your version, it is fundamentally flawed in that you end up with the weak hand playing 4M with a 4-4 fit after the 2NT opening. This is going to cost you about an average of at least a third of a trick, which is pretty disastrous.

 

 

I did say you could puppet over 2NT if you wished....

 

I'm more interested in comments on the 1NT response structure which seems to hang together with the sole loss of Garbage Stayman and utilises a similar method for showing 2/3 spades as over 2NT to handle the responding hands with 5S+4H.

 

We also play the following which complements the Stayman auctions :

 

1N-3any = Decent 6 card suit (partner should bid 3NT with Hx or any max)

 

1N-transfer then raise = 6+ cards GF+ or 4N = quantitative

 

1N-transfer then minor suit = GF+

1N-transfer then other major : 1N-2D-2H-2S = 5H+4S F1, 1N-2H-2S-3H = 5-5 Inv

 

1N-4m = transfers to 4M, over which Pass = to play or 4N = RKCB

[PhilKing]

I did say you could puppet over 2NT if you wished....

 

 

I think you should actually bother to look at other versions and see why they are better before trying to reinvent the wheel.

[fbear]

I think you should actually bother to look at other versions and see why they are better before trying to reinvent the wheel.

 

Thanks for being so constructive.

[PhilKing]

Thanks for being so constructive.

 

This thread is likely to get ugly. :ph34r:

[Wackojack]

Here is an earlier 11 page thread on this topic that got ugly. Extreme patience is required to read all of it.

 

http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/topic/51887-puppet-stayman/page__hl__%2Bpuppet+%2Bstayman

[kenrexford]

I had a similar thought. I can't figure out why everyone wants Responder to play major contracts when partner has a strong notrump hand. It seems obvious to want Opener to declare, and yet no one has come up with a scheme to have Opener play the major contract!

 

It is actually very easy. I call my method Rexford Transmits. I transmit information to Opener, and he knows what to do.

 

Suppose partner opens 1NT. Suppose you have a major of 5-card length or greater. If you have spades, you want partner to bid spades first. So, you bid the OTHER MAJOR!!! 2♥, as the other major, shows spades. Easy.

 

My partner and I at first tried bidding 2♠ to show hearts, as the "other major" call, but that got costly. It forces a higher level. We then decided a better approach would be to bid the MINOR OF THE SAME COLOR!!!

 

 

 

 

 

[Vampyr]

This thread is likely to get ugly. :ph34r:

 

Phil, your suggestion was very helpful; why do you think the OP was being sarcastic?

[mgoetze]

fbear and his partner bid uncontested:

 

1NT 2♣

2♦ 2♥

3NT p

 

Your lead?

[fromageGB]

fbear and his partner bid uncontested:

 

1NT 2♣

2♦ 2♥

3NT p

 

Your lead?

There's a snag here. What do I do when on lead and I am void in spades?

[fromageGB]

Suppose partner opens 1NT. Suppose you have a major of 5-card length or greater. If you have spades, you want partner to bid spades first. So, you bid the OTHER MAJOR!!! 2♥, as the other major, shows spades. Easy.

 

My partner and I at first tried bidding 2♠ to show hearts, as the "other major" call, but that got costly. It forces a higher level. We then decided a better approach would be to bid the MINOR OF THE SAME COLOR!!!

No, this will never be adopted by anyone. Having different methods for each major makes it too complicated.

[helene_t]

You can play similarly over 1NT (with a slight 'wrinkle' to handle min/max hands with a doubleton spade) :

[.....]

1NT-2C

2D-?

 

2M = 4 card suit - Forcing to 2N

If you want 2M to be forcing you may as well invert them to make opener declare more often.

 

I think your approach looks sensible, I am not sure why some other posters are so negative/sarcastic.

[gwnn]

snip

[fromageGB]

I think your approach looks sensible, I am not sure why some other posters are so negative/sarcastic.

I dislike the inability to play in 2M if you have found a 4-4 fit.

I dislike responder playing the 4-4 major fit. (note 1)

I dislike the idea of opener showing doubleton spades when responder has not shown spade length. (note 2)

 

 

Note 1 : If you invert responder's major bids, as you suggest, I don't think you can find a heart fit unless GF.

Note 2 : When responder has shown 4+ but unknown spade length, it is different.

[Vampyr]

No, this will never be adopted by anyone. Having different methods for each major makes it too complicated.

 

I have in fact tried it, and all of my partners go along with it!

[Vampyr]

Dup please delete.

[fbear]

If you want 2M to be forcing you may as well invert them to make opener declare more often.

 

I think your approach looks sensible, I am not sure why some other posters are so negative/sarcastic.

 

Thank you. I think people sometimes assume the worse about others when they don't agree with them or they make assumptions about them without actually bothering to exercise a little tolerance and patience. This is sadly why there is so much conflict in the world, because opinionated people think the rest of the world should believe what and behave the way they do.

 

If someone doesn't agree with someone or doesn't think their questions deserve attention, I think they should just ignore them rather than be sarcastic, abusive and dismissive.

 

I'd ignored the sarcastic comment about leading to the auction FromageGB presented as they hadn't bothered to think about the kind of hand responder may have for the auction 1NT-2C-2D-2H-3NT. As responder my partner and I bid this way holding S KQ10xx H KJxx D xx C xx as 2H will elicit whether opener holds a 4 card heart suit or 3 card spade suit.

 

It's easy to criticise and suggest this thread may get 'ugly' in a confrontational and threatening way when people are separated by copper wire and the ether, I wonder how many would behave this way in person ?

 

It was not my intention to invite abuse, so my apologies if anyone thought it deserved it.

[whereagles]

There are many ways to say the same thing, and everybody knows that. So how you do it is really a matter of choice.

[fromageGB]

I'd ignored the sarcastic comment about leading to the auction FromageGB presented as they hadn't bothered to think about the kind of hand responder may have for the auction 1NT-2C-2D-2H-3NT. As responder my partner and I bid this way holding S KQ10xx H KJxx D xx C xx as 2H will elicit whether opener holds a 4 card heart suit or 3 card spade suit.

Perhaps it should not be ignored. Certainly with this hand a spade lead would not be a disaster, but I was thinking your method would have the same sequence when responder had

♠ xx

♥ KJTx

♦ KQxxx

♣ xx

to take an extreme case, and here a spade lead would not be a good start for you when opener has a doubleton.

 

I apologise if I have misunderstood.

 

While this is a criticism - and see also my other post with more reasons - it is intended to be constructive and I do believe in being honest and not saying "this has merit" when I don't mean it. There are many ways of bidding, and it is a matter of choice, but in my view some methods are appreciably worse than others.

[fbear]

Perhaps it should not be ignored. Certainly with this hand a spade lead would not be a disaster, but I was thinking your method would have the same sequence when responder had

♠ xx

♥ KJTx

♦ KQxxx

♣ xx

to take an extreme case, and here a spade lead would not be a good start for you when opener has a doubleton.

 

I apologise if I have misunderstood.

 

While this is a criticism - and see also my other post with more reasons - it is intended to be constructive and I do believe in being honest and not saying "this has merit" when I don't mean it. There are many ways of bidding, and it is a matter of choice, but in my view some methods are appreciably worse than others.

 

Thanks for clarifying your comments and sorry it's taken so long to respond, I don't use this forum very often.

 

With the hand you gave, the system is to respond 2C stayman, but follow it up with 3m natural 5+ cards and GF which will either find a 4-4 H fit otherwise possibly identify an issue in one of the black suits and suggest playing in the D suit.

 

I realise there are many systemic agreements and conventions over 1NT and I didn't want to make it sound like I'd got the perfect solution to all the possible responding hands, I was interested in people's own agreements and wondered why more people hadn't adopted a 5 card enquiry method - especially when many pairs are opening 1NT with 5 card majors.

[Zelandakh]

Note 1 : If you invert responder's major bids, as you suggest, I don't think you can find a heart fit unless GF.

It is not a problem at all as I have posted many times. My own choice of method is for 2♥ to be a form of relay, generally denying 4 hearts, and 2♠ then shows 4 hearts. 2NT over 2♦ is invitational with 4-4 in the majors. Very easy. The benefits you get from 2M being forcing more than make up for not being able to stop there on some 4-4 fits. And you can still stop in 2M when either player has a 5 card major of course.

[BillPatch]

I found the Klinger methods for 5 card Stayman to be quite playable, although your mileage may vary. A late bridge partner fed me this method in selected clippings from a popular bridge calendar. I dutifully studied the material, thinking that was his request. After agreeing to play it, I found that he had not learned it! Another source for this is Kilinger. Five Card Major Stayman.

[KurtGodel]

This is going to cost you about an average of at least a third of a trick, which is pretty disastrous.

 

Just out of curiosity where does this number come from? I know you sit on a bigger database of hands than pretty much everyone else, just wondering what kind of comparison you used.