Stop Card Problem

[aguahombre]

The current version of the regulation says that experienced players are expected to maintain proper tempo (i.e. hesitate after a skip bid) whether the Stop card is used or not. Has that "experienced" qualifier always been there?

Dunno whether it has always been there, but it makes things interesting. So, when we use the Stop Card, we are also expressing our opinion about the level and/or ethics of LHO. However, only the experienced LHO would recognize the insult.

[blackshoe]

But the Laws also say that failing a "should" is not normally penalized. So ACBL's logic is that if there's no penalty for not using the Stop card, it's effectively optional. The purpose of using the Stop card is stated to be to "protect their rights and the opponent's"; so if they don't use it, I guess their rights aren't protected, and that's considered to be a built-in punishment.

 

The current version of the regulation says that experienced players are expected to maintain proper tempo (i.e. hesitate after a skip bid) whether the Stop card is used or not. Has that "experienced" qualifier always been there?

"Not normally penalized" does not mean "no penalty". "Rights not protected" is a punishment? I don't buy it. And what of the rights of the opponents? I'm not at all sure of the logic there.

[barmar]

Dunno whether it has always been there, but it makes things interesting. So, when we use the Stop Card, we are also expressing our opinion about the level and/or ethics of LHO. However, only the experienced LHO would recognize the insult.

If a player were inconsistent in their use of the Stop card, and it depended on which player was their LHO, I suppose you could interpret it that way.

[Vampyr]

 

The current version of the regulation says that experienced players are expected to maintain proper tempo (i.e. hesitate after a skip bid) whether the Stop card is used or not. Has that "experienced" qualifier always been there?

 

How is a player who has to think about his next call supposed to count the seconds he is taking as well? The regulation would be better if it stipulated that when no Stop card is used, LHO can take as long (or as short) as she needs.

[aguahombre]

If a player were inconsistent in their use of the Stop card, and it depended on which player was their LHO, I suppose you could interpret it that way.

AND, is my opinion of LHO...expressed by use of the Stop Card...AI or UI? :rolleyes:

 

Anyway, unless I am in a jurisdiction which requires its use, you will never see the Stop Card come out of my box unless I thought it was a Double by mistake.

[barmar]

How is a player who has to think about his next call supposed to count the seconds he is taking as well? The regulation would be better if it stipulated that when no Stop card is used, LHO can take as long (or as short) as she needs.

If you have something to think about, you're always allowed to take that time. There's nothing in the Stop card regulation that says you're limited to 10 seconds.

 

Of course, if you take much longer than 10 seconds, there will be UI regardless of the use of the Stop card. 10 seconds is a long time.

[Vampyr]

If you have something to think about, you're always allowed to take that time. There's nothing in the Stop card regulation that says you're limited to 10 seconds.

 

No, but 10 seconds is the "normal" time; if you think for less time you are still required to pause for 10 seconds. Do any other jurisdictions require the bidder to time himself?

[nige1]

AND, is my opinion of LHO...expressed by use of the Stop Card...AI or UI? :rolleyes:

 

Anyway, unless I am in a jurisdiction which requires its use, you will never see the Stop Card come out of my box unless I thought it was a Double by mistake.

Pity because when it was introduced, stop legislation was a good idea -- addressing a real problem -- the UI from the break in tempo that jump bid bids often engendered. Unfortunately, different RAs implemented it in different ways. And players sometimes disregard local regulations, especially when they seem daft. Players would benefit If the WBFLC took the time to extract best practice from the current chaos into new universal law

[aguahombre]

Yes, the Stop Card was well intentioned at the outset. But, it has proved to be a bad idea.

 

It has become an excuse for the opponents not to pay attention to the bids.

It has become a distraction from the real issue when there is a break in tempo. "Was the stop card Used?"...instead of dealing with the break in tempo and its ramifications.

It is misused to wake partner up.

The burden of proper tempo should be on the person required to maintain tempo. It shouldn't be the responsibility of the opponents to remind us of our obligations or to count down for us.

[Lanor Fow]

No, but 10 seconds is the "normal" time; if you think for less time you are still required to pause for 10 seconds. Do any other jurisdictions require the bidder to time himself?

 

The EBU does

[weejonnie]

Because the stop card is a single card, I have noticed some players using it, literally, to tell partner that this is the final contract. The demeanour is self evident - often accompanied by a very fast use of the card itself.

 

There is also the problem for the LHO in that they are supposed to look studious

 

It also gets abused when there is a mis-fit and warns partner not to carry on.

 

Of course in many auctions it isn't needed. If EW are silent are they likely to bid if the auction goes

 

pass: 1S: pass: 2H : pass

Stop 4 Clubs

 

(well maybe. after 3 Clubs EW would be silent - but they might double a splinter as lead directing. The stop card gives advance warning that a splinter may be coming)

 

NB - it is the person who pulls out the stop card who should count. It is only if he withdraws the stop card prematurely that the LHO has to continue thinking.

 

"Before making a jump bid (i.e. a bid at a higher level than the minimum required) a player must place the Stop card in front of him, then place his call as usual, and eventually remove the Stop card. His left-hand opponent should not call until the Stop card has been removed. The Stop card should be left on the table for about ten seconds, to give the next player time to reflect. It should not be removed prematurely.

 

After a jump bid; the next player must pause for about ten seconds before calling. It is an offence either not to pause or to show indifference when pausing. If the Stop card has been removed prematurely or has not been used, an opponent should pause as though the Stop card had been used correctly."

 

To count to 10 seconds I use the 1000 rule: Thinking of saying "1001, 1002, 1003, 1004...1010" is pretty close to the mark.

 

It does help stop insufficient bids and gives time to assimilate the extra information that the jump bid provides.

 

If it were obviously bad no RA would use it. If it was obviously good all RAs would use it.

[WellSpyder]

To count to 10 seconds I use the 1000 rule: Thinking of saying "1001, 1002, 1003, 1004...1010" is pretty close to the mark.

Yes, we could all have a go at that to avoid bidding prematurely. Vampyr's point, though, is that it is a lot tougher to do that if you are actually also trying to decide what or whether to bid.

[barmar]

Yes, we could all have a go at that to avoid bidding prematurely. Vampyr's point, though, is that it is a lot tougher to do that if you are actually also trying to decide what or whether to bid.

The theory is that if you actually have to think about something, you'll take close to, or even more than, 10 seconds as a result. It's when you don't have something to think about that you have to time yourself, so that your non-thinking pause will be as long as a thinking pause.

 

No one is holding a stopwatch to players, requiring every Stop-card hesitation to be precisely 10 seconds. I would laugh at someone who claimed UI was transmitted because someone took only 8 seconds rather than the full 10 seconds. What information does that impart? It could be that he had something to thinking about, but it wasn't so hard that it took all of 10 seconds, or it could just be that he didn't count 10 seconds very well. Unless the player is incredibly precise when he makes the forced 10-second pauses, and partner is also timing him carefully, this is too close to call.

 

Again, my opinion may be biased due to habits in the US. Around here, even players who do hesitate after skip bids (with or without the card) rarely take the full 10 seconds. We make a show of thinking about something, but 10 seconds is a LONG time. I haven't timed myself, but I think I rarely make it beyond 5 seconds. But since I also rarely take longer than this when I do have something to think about, I don't see how any UI is conveyed.

[Vampyr]

The EBU does

 

Well, the following passage from WB 1.6.2 Is contradictory for sure:

 

The Stop card should be left on the table for about ten seconds, to give the next player time to reflect. It should not be removed prematurely.

After a jump bid, the next player MUST pause for about ten seconds before calling. It is an offence either not to pause or to show indifference when pausing. If the Stop card has been removed prematurely or has not been used, an opponent should nevertheless pause as though the Stop card had been used correctly.

 

But I think that it is obvious that if the first requirement is not fulfilled, LHO will be given some degree of latitude.

 

How bonkers is it that a regulation such as this, which is needed by players, appears in the book which is intended for TDs, instead of the one (Blue Book) which is intended for players? The EBU's L&E publications are a shambles. It is truly hopeless.

[Vampyr]

We make a show of thinking about something, but 10 seconds is a LONG time. I haven't timed myself, but I think I rarely make it beyond 5 seconds.

 

If you don't need to think, or are the Stop-card holder, sing "When I'm 64" to yourself. You will finish the word "valentine" after 10 seconds.

[mycroft]

So, this is always a cross-Pond disagreement (and having said that, I am not 100% on the Leftpondian side, except when I rule, of course).

 

In England and some other places, the Stop card player makes the count and controls the tempo. The implication here is that the call should come in the same time frame as the Stop Card retraction, and if it doesn't, then it's clear there was thinking going on. That is a clear benefit, as is the fact that the Stop bidder has nothing to do but count time, and the next hand doesn't have to do the "3 second think, 7 second pause, or was it 5 seconds think, so 5 second pause" game.

 

Of course, it relies on the Stop Card bidder being able to count 10 seconds, which is in fact a difficult task. I know, all the posters here get it right (through various and sundry singing counts - better than steamboats, as people's sense of music tempo is better than their sense of second, oddly enough); I would believe that after 20 years of universal training, almost all in EBU get it right; I am quite certain that it would never work here, even if we tried it; and would have never worked even if we didn't have all the experience we have now of getting it wrong.

 

I am also sure that there are many who count to 10 in 5 seconds and then would gripe when I did my usual ACBL-trained pause for the rest. I only hope that it'll be the hand like when our opponents literally stood on the chair and screamed for the TD "He hesitated, and he bid!" where it becomes obvious to even "I know it was today, but *what time* today?" players that no thinking took place.

 

Over here, it's the responsibility of the person who gains a benefit from putting in a "95% think time pause" 100% of the time to count it. The benefit is that I don't have to trust my opponents, who really do not have my best interests top in their mind, to get the pause right, nor do I have to obviously watch for the card pull, while still appearing to be thinking about my call (which I'm sure is just as hard as pretending to think is - how many Stop Card Starers do you get, anyway?), nor do I have to worry about the TD call when I took 7 seconds to determine my call, then look up to find the Stop Card's gone, then the TD call because it was "clearly after the card was pulled", which I'm sure is a situation I can't win.

 

Swings, roundabouts. All I know is that the current ACBL situation is the worst of both worlds, and I hope we'll be getting a lot more "shotgun pass" or "yeah, but the last three times I preempted, it was a shotgun call, so this time it's clear he was thinking" calls to do some player training on.

 

[Edit: I see the quote from the white book about "'10-second' stop cards that are actually 5 seconds" Vampyr posted. I'm still certain that when the "he said, she said" discussion happens with the TD at the table, as the "hesitator", I'm going to have a very hard time winning this case. After all, 10 seconds *is* a really long time, and the rest of the table is going to all agree it was "at least 10 seconds" if *they* haven't been sing-counting...]

 

(*) for those that care, playing EHAA in the Red Ribbons, *many* years ago, the auction went 2♠ (Alert and explain)-3NT-p-p; 4♥ "DIE-REC-TOR!" It actually took my partner to say "did you not make a jump call?" for me to realize what the problem was - because "I hadn't hesitated", I thought. Dummy tracks, to 4♠X after the obvious auction, with Qxx Jxx 8xxx Txx...lose 4 Aces for -200 (and a very smug top).

[blackshoe]

What if I don't know the words?

[barmar]

If you don't need to think, or are the Stop-card holder, sing "When I'm 64" to yourself. You will finish the word "valentine" after 10 seconds.

Yeah, I know about that trick. But I can't get myself to sit there that long, it just seems way too long.

 

I've long thought that when organizations came up with 10 seconds as the appropriate amount, the main reason was that it's a nice, round number. They didn't really think about how long it actually is compared to how much time players actually take to bid,even when they have to think a bit. I don't think there's ever a 10-second think -- either you can come up with a bid in 1-5 seconds, or you go into the tank for much longer than 10 seconds. (The main exception is beginners and life novices who have to think about almost everything, but their normal tempo is extremely slow so there's no special need for skip bid hesitations.)

[aguahombre]

What if I don't know the words?

hum a few bars, and they will fake it.

[Vampyr]

Yeah, I know about that trick. But I can't get myself to sit there that long, it just seems way too long.

 

I can understand that -- I find that it's not unusual for weaker players to make a call BEFORE I've removed the Stop card (I am pretty consistent about holding it out for the full 10 seconds).

[aguahombre]

I can understand that -- I find that it's not unusual for weaker players to make a call BEFORE I've removed the Stop card (I am pretty consistent about holding it out for the full 10 seconds).

Oops. I am now a weaker player, because my RHO can't count to ten. Find another reason to call me what I am, please.

[blackshoe]

(The main exception is beginners and life novices who have to think about almost everything, but their normal tempo is extremely slow so there's no special need for skip bid hesitations.)

And yet their opponents still call the director because the life novice's (or beginner's) normal tempo is "out of tempo!" :o

[Vampyr]

Oops. I am now a weaker player, because my RHO can't count to ten. Find another reason to call me what I am, please.

 

Well, it is mainly the regular tournament-goers who generally wait until the Stop cards is removed, and it is usually the most experienced of those that I can count on always to do it. This has been my experience; YMMV, of course.

[blackshoe]

I would be surprised if many of Agua's opponents leave the stop card out for ten seconds, considering that the regulation here says to put it out there, make your skip bid, and immediately pick it up.