Do you have any chance?

[Jinksy]

Bid with your preferred system, assume IMPs. N is dealer:

 

[hv=pc=n&s=s2hajt32d2cqjt832&n=skt865hq76daq93c7]133|200[/hv]

 

For us it goes 2♠ P P P, going down ignominiously on the lie of the actual E/W cards when 4♥ was making.

 

If N opens 1♠, and assuming you're not playing 2/1 GF, does it affect your response as S whether N has promised 4 or 5 ♠s for his bid?

[whereagles]

I take it 2♠ is a weakish two-suiter.

 

Anyway, if to goes 1♠, I'd make it

 

1♠ 1NT

2♦

 

and now South must guess to bid hearts or clubs. One works, the other not really. I would probably go for 3♣.

[Jinksy]

I take it 2♠ is a weakish two-suiter.

 

Fantunes - 10-13 points, 5+♠s.

[Cyberyeti]

1♠-2♥

3♥-4♥

 

2/1 not FG [edited in the light of subsequent comments: but is F1] and not promising another bid, normally a 10 count, but the hand has a lot of playing strength with all the high cards in the long suits and the intermediates. Most of the time partner will rebid 2♠ (where I have a decision to make) or an artificial GF not necessarily balanced 2N in our system over 2♥ where I'll be able to follow up with 3♣. If I respond 2♣ it gets awkward over 2♠ as I'm much more worried about partner having 3 hearts on this auction than I am about him having 3 clubs on the other, and gets high over 2N if I have to bid 3♥.

 

[edit: also I'm stuffed if it goes 1♠-2♣-2♦ as 2♥ is 4SF and 3♥ would be a splinter agreeing diamonds, so while I might conceivably persuade pd I have 4, I'll never persuade him I have 5, this is another reason for bidding 2♥]

[mikestar13]

2♥ response to 1♠ will get you there and is appropriate for the reasons Cyberyeti cited. Doesn't matter if you play 4 card majors or not, opener seldom has only 4 when he opens 1♠ and you aren't going to play spades anyway.

 

This is actually a hard one to bid in 2/1 GF or even those big club methods that use 2/1 GF over limit bids, the style just doesn't work well on weak two suiters with playing strength when neither suit is opener's, but you might get to 2♥ making 4 instead of going down in spades:

 

1♠-1NT-2♦-2♥-P

 

 

This hand is a loser for Fantunes, but there will be a lot of wins when (with a different responding hand) they have a heart game they can't find. If your partnership can get even a small minus EV on the Fantunes two bids, the one bids make the system a winner.

[yunling]

Don't think anyone can reach game here, it is a misfit anyway.

1♠(11-20, 5+♠)-2♥(5+♥-5+m less than invite)

P

[mcphee]

Assuming N opens my guess would be to bid 1N and upon hearing 2D 2H will be the popular choice. As responder facing not so friendly looking fit so far the 2H bid has the greatest upside, should there be a game. After 2H north will possibly invite thinking partner holds 6H. What takes place from there is left to the iagainaations. 4H does not look so good to me on a trump lead, needing both C with LHO or hi honor twice with RHO and friendly trumps.

[Jinksy]

If S responds 2♥ I suppose it's problem over. To me though, that looks resultsy on this hand - sure it gets us to game when P has a suitable min with exactly 3 card support, but if P rebids 2♠ I won't be happy and if he rebids something stronger, I doubt he'll be happy when we end up at the five level (or higher) in the wrong denomination.

 

Assuming no 2/1GF, I prefer (though could be persuaded that it's stupid) 2♣. If P rebids 2♦ (as on this hand) I have to rebid 3♣ and lose the H suit - but on such a misfit I'll feel like I won't usually be missing game. Meanwhile if he rebids 2♠ I'll now be a lot happier passing it - and if he rebids ♥s or supports ♣s, I won't feel that I've overstated the value of my hand.

[the hog]

1S 1N

2D 2H

all pass

 

I think Fantoni would choke if he saw his system being misused.

[Jinksy]

I think Fantoni would choke if he saw his system being misused.

 

I know abject ignorance seldom deters you from posting, but you could aspire to think when you type. These are hands they've actually opened 2♠ on (all in first or second seat):

 

♠ K8632

♥ 6

♦ KQ52

♣ A92

 

♠ QJ742

♥ QT2

♦

♣ AQJ52

 

♠ T8642

♥ A

♦ KJ

♣ KT932

 

♠ KT986

♥ QJT

♦ KT93

♣ J

 

♠ A9532

♥ 54

♦ K

♣ K9832

 

♠ Q8652

♥ Q72

♦ KQJ2

♣ 2

 

Care to explain why the hand I posted is uniquely unsuitable among that list?

[whereagles]

I have to open 2♠ on those pieces of junk playing Fantunes???

 

Gimme the original hand anytime :)

[rhm]

If S responds 2♥ I suppose it's problem over. To me though, that looks resultsy on this hand - sure it gets us to game when P has a suitable min with exactly 3 card support, but if P rebids 2♠ I won't be happy and if he rebids something stronger, I doubt he'll be happy when we end up at the five level (or higher) in the wrong denomination.

 

Assuming no 2/1GF, I prefer (though could be persuaded that it's stupid) 2♣. If P rebids 2♦ (as on this hand) I have to rebid 3♣ and lose the H suit - but on such a misfit I'll feel like I won't usually be missing game. Meanwhile if he rebids 2♠ I'll now be a lot happier passing it - and if he rebids ♥s or supports ♣s, I won't feel that I've overstated the value of my hand.

Why all 2/1 sequences must be either game forcing or not escapes me.

I play for a long time a system where 1M-2m is game forcing but 1♠-2♥ is constructive but not even forcing.

Game forcing heart hands start with 2♣, which obviously is artificial with appropriate responses. (1M-2♦ shows a good 5 card diamond suit)

 

So the bidding would start 1♠-2♥ non forcing.

If opener would rebid 2♠ responder bids 3♣ showing at least 5-5 and no fit for spades. Since 2♥ was not forcing so is 3♣.

If responder had a game forcing hand he would have started with 2♣

 

Rainer Herrmann

[wanoff]

Basic Acol gets you to the right strain - maybe not game.

1♠-1NT-2♦-2NT-3♥-Pass

 

1NT shows 5-8 any shape < 3S. It looks like South is worth at least 9, but that's only true if there's a fit.

2NT shows 5H-6C. Possibly shows only 5/5 but with that I'd be tempted to lie and try 2♥.

[MrAce]

The more I read this thread, the more I see methods tailored to find the right contract on this particular deal, the more I chuckle.

But to be fair, I failed to predict 1♠-2♥ NF (not even F1) will be suggested.

[gszes]

I also begin 2s (multi) but realize the potential if there

is a club fit (possibly even a heart fit) and begin with

 

2n

 

after the 3d bid comes 3h follows by 4h with a fit and near max

but this seems more like luck than knowledge since the 3h bid

itself might be worse off than the original 2s but unlikely to

be much worse off and a "just" reward is reaped.

[PhantomSac]

1S 1N

2D 2H

all pass

 

In general I think 5341 should always raise to 3H but the north hand is quite terrible so maybe a pass is called for. Having the SK is a really bad holding.

[rhm]

The more I read this thread, the more I see methods tailored to find the right contract on this particular deal, the more I chuckle.

But to be fair, I failed to predict 1♠-2♥ NF (not even F1) will be suggested.

Certainly not standard. But there is little reason to chuckle. It shows that you know little beyond standard.

There are quite a few systems, which play that way and for good reasons, not just to accommodate this particular deal.

To mention just one, but a famous one: Ultimate club

 

Rainer Herrmann

[whereagles]

Some systems have built-in negative 2/1s. I've played a variation of precision like that once. Didn't quite like it though.

[the hog]

I know abject ignorance seldom deters you from posting, but you could aspire to think when you type. These are hands they've actually opened 2♠ on (all in first or second seat):

 

♠ K8632

♥ 6

♦ KQ52

♣ A92

 

♠ QJ742

♥ QT2

♦

♣ AQJ52

 

♠ T8642

♥ A

♦ KJ

♣ KT932

 

♠ KT986

♥ QJT

♦ KT93

♣ J

 

♠ A9532

♥ 54

♦ K

♣ K9832

 

♠ Q8652

♥ Q72

♦ KQJ2

♣ 2

 

Care to explain why the hand I posted is uniquely unsuitable among that list?

 

When I make a post which invites you to comment, I will pull the chain.

[Cyberyeti]

When I make a post which invites you to comment, I will pull the chain.

 

OK, so when you're proved to be utterly wrong by the OP (who is always entitled to comment), you just resort to abuse.

 

this is an absolutely standard fantunes 2♠

[wanoff]

The more I read this thread, the more I see methods tailored to find the right contract on this particular deal, the more I chuckle.

But to be fair, I failed to predict 1♠-2♥ NF (not even F1) will be suggested.

 

I too had a little chuckle when I saw Acol being described as a tailored method. I've not heard that one before.

You're probabably more familiar with 1♠-1NT-2x-3m which is usually a 7cd minor.

[MrAce]

I too had a little chuckle when I saw Acol being described as a tailored method. I've not heard that one before.

You're probabably more familiar with 1♠-1NT-2x-3m which is usually a 7cd minor.

 

 

I was not talking about the system itself, but usage of it, when one decides to skip the cheaper and longer suit and bids shorter when choosing his 2/1 response, just because pd happens to support hearts it is normal to think that the auction is tailored for the result. I can easily construct hands where bidding 2♥ NF leads to a part score that does not make when slam is cold in club suits, but if Acol players say this hand bids 2♥, then let them be. It's their gain on this hand and loss on another. It looks always gain on forums, while IRL it shows different success rate http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif (Actually it is very tuff nowadays to see how good acol is doing, since the top players of so called "Acol Land" seems to have abandoned it.)

[gnasher]

If I decided to make a non-game-forcing two-over-one response, I'd definitely choose 2♥ rather than 2♣. The upside of finding a heart fit is much greater than the upside of finding a club fit. I don't think that's specifically an Acol thing: the same argument applies in Standard American too, or any system where you can stop in 2♠ or 2NT after responding 2♥.

 

And I do think one should respond at the two-level on this hand-type, partly because 1♠-1NT will often lead to the wrong partscore, as well as missing some games. In fact, I'd do it on a worse hand than this. I've just found a deal where I responded 2♥ on 8 KQ1093 5 K109643. One deal doesn't tell us very much, but FWIW partner had AQ1095 J84 KJ3 QJ, so we bid 1♠-2♥;3♥-4♥ whilst the opponents bid 1♠-1NT;pass.

[MrAce]

...... One deal doesn't tell us very much, .......

 

Indeed.

[the hog]

OK, so when you're proved to be utterly wrong by the OP (who is always entitled to comment), you just resort to abuse.

 

this is an absolutely standard fantunes 2♠

 

Is English your third language perchance? I find it amusing that ordinary players, insert "non expert" if it makes you feel better, use methods which require a high degree of judgement and expert card play and defence.

It is particularly amusing when these methods are played by one world class pair only and a small handful of experts. Adopting such a high risk system will not make you a better player or improve your results. The posted hand is a case in point.