What response to multi?

[whereagles]

1. And this is why the 2♥ bid you describe is banned in the UK in most events.

 

2. Your weak options have to have an anchor suit, if not your either/or may not contain the suit opened.

 

1. Ah, ok.

 

2. Excuse me? http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/huh.gif

[helene_t]

Point 2. means that if the long suit is unknown, it must at least be known not be the opening suit. You can play 2♥ as a weak hand with spades, clubs or diamonds, or as a weak hand with hearts+other, but not as a weak hand with hearts OR something else.

[whereagles]

think i see it.. thx :)

[msjennifer]

I do not know who put the balanced 24 HCP hand in the multi 2 D bid.In my opinion it is absolutely silly .One opens 2 C on such a hand and rebids 2 NT with 23-24 and 3NT with 25/26..It is much sensible to play 2D as Flannery as in one bid you tell your hand to partner who can now preempt or sign off or make constructive forcing bids or even Pass.With the given options a 2 H bid is the only sensible bid on this particular hand.

[helene_t]

I do not know who put the balanced 24 HCP hand in the multi 2 D bid. In my opinion it is absolutely silly .One opens 2 C on such a hand and rebids 2 NT with 23-24 and 3NT with 25/26.

You can play that but the 3NT rebid takes up a lot of bidding space.

 

You can play 2♣ followed by 2NT as 23-24 and 2♣ followed by 2♥ followed by 2NT as 25+ but some people want to play the 2♥ response to 2♣ as "bust", which means that you can't differentiate after that. Besides, many people want the 2NT opening to be 20-21 (or even 19-20 for some) rather than 21-22.

[the hog]

I do not know who put the balanced 24 HCP hand in the multi 2 D bid.In my opinion it is absolutely silly .One opens 2 C on such a hand and rebids 2 NT with 23-24 and 3NT with 25/26..It is much sensible to play 2D as Flannery as in one bid you tell your hand to partner who can now preempt or sign off or make constructive forcing bids or even Pass.With the given options a 2 H bid is the only sensible bid on this particular hand.

 

In my opinion your advice is totally silly. Sure open 2NT with 21-22 but go via Kokish to show 25-26, not the bludgeon 3NT bid.

[001hans]

Interesting problem. Usually multi-2D includes strong hand(s). 2S would be my choice: if partner has spades, we may escape if opps' spades are 4-3.

 

But the main problem lies elsewhere. Suppose your multi-2D includes a 22/23 NT and that you open 2NT with 20/21 or 2Clubs with 24/25. With a 22/23 NT-hand partner needs time to do his counting: 1 point more or less is of vital importance for the choice of opening bid. So, often your partner can conclude from the time you need before you open 2D (if weak with 6 spades or 6 hearts only a few seconds; with 22/23 significantly longer) whether you have a weak or a strong hand. And that may influence his choice of response. For example: if you have xxx, Jxxx, Hxxxx, x, you respond with a preemptive 3H if you can be pretty sure that partner has a weak hand with a 6-card major, but 2H/S if he needed some time to do his counting ….

 

The same applies to other Multi-type opening bids, like 2 Clubs as either a specific strong NT-hand or weak with both majors.

 

Therefore I propose to use the STOP-rule (one's left hand opp. has an obligation to pause for 10 seconds before taking action) also BEFORE placing an 2X-opening bid on the table, so as to make it impossible for his partner to draw conclusions from the time used to assess his hand.

 

HvdH

[msjennifer]

I play the following.A 2C opening shows,(a) 23 plus if balanced,(b)nine or more winners if single suiter major.©ten or more winners if single suiter in minor.

Responses:(a)2D shows less than 8 HCP and also less than one and half Culbertson tricks.(b)2H/S and 3C/D show 8 plus HCP and the named 5plus suit.©2NT shows 8 plus balanced hand.(d)3H/S and 4C/D show slam hands 4441 with the bid suit singleton.I never faced any problems with this plan.

[Cyberyeti]

I play the following.A 2C opening shows,(a) 23 plus if balanced,(b)nine or more winners if single suiter major.©ten or more winners if single suiter in minor.

Responses:(a)2D shows less than 8 HCP and also less than one and half Culbertson tricks.(b)2H/S and 3C/D show 8 plus HCP and the named 5plus suit.©2NT shows 8 plus balanced hand.(d)3H/S and 4C/D show slam hands 4441 with the bid suit singleton.I never faced any problems with this plan.

 

This is a perfectly valid scheme but fairly old fashioned. Do you play 2N 20-22 ? if so you lose out a bit there as either you miss games or bid some bad ones, many people use a 2 point range now rather than 3.

 

Also bidding after 2♣-2N is horrible and wrongsides NT, which is why many nowadays play 2♣-2♦ as a GF waiting bid so that opener can describe their hand at a lower level.

 

Also if you need 10 tricks for a single suited minor, what do you do with 9 ? play in 1♦+3 with 3N cold or do you have another strong bid ?

[nige1]

MP club game, fav vuln, pard opens a multi 2♦ in first seat, passed to you. Your hand: ♥xx ♦QTxxxxx ♣Jxxx

Anything to say?

[multi is weak 2M, strong acol 2 in the minors, or massive balanced]

Pass = 10, 2♥ = 7. There's a low probability that partner has a balanced mountain but it's worth the risk at MPs. If partner has a strong minor-suited hand, then opponents probably have a good major contract. If, as is most likely, partner has a weak 2 in ♠s, then passing may cause confusion, although 2♥ gives less information.

[1eyedjack]

There's a low probability that partner has a strong balanced

 

That is contrary to my instinct. Anyone care to come up with some Bayesian numbers for this? Hard to factor in RHO's pass, but that should elevate it.

 

I also passed, as noted above, but this despite my assessment that a strong bal was reasonably likely.

 

 

 

[el mister]

That is contrary to my instinct. Anyone care to come up with some Bayesian numbers for this? Hard to factor in RHO's pass, but that should elevate it.

 

I also passed, as noted above, but this despite my assessment that a strong bal was reasonably likely.

Don't understand that 1eyedjack - pard opens a multi, opp passes and it's reasonably likely that he's 24/25 balanced? That can't be right.

[the hog]

Don't understand that 1eyedjack - pard opens a multi, opp passes and it's reasonably likely that he's 24/25 balanced? That can't be right.

 

Well it is far more likely than if the opp had doubled or bid something, isn't it?

[Cyberyeti]

Well it is far more likely than if the opp had doubled or bid something, isn't it?

 

True, but I suspect it's still 5% or less. Had the balanced option been 19-20 as it is for quite a few people, it would be a lot more likely.

[helene_t]

The semiforcing with clubs may also be a real possibility. RHO could have a decent hand with both majors, in which case it is reasonable that he doesn't bid.

[PhilKing]

Don't understand that 1eyedjack - pard opens a multi, opp passes and it's reasonably likely that he's 24/25 balanced? That can't be right.

 

The probability changes with events:

 

Event 1. Partner opens a multi. The odds are massively in favour of him holding a weak 2 in a major.

 

Event 2. We look at our hand. The odds of him holding a strong hand increase considerably.

 

Event 3. RHO passes. The odds rise again.

 

Now I don't know how much by, but I am guessing they have risen enough to make passing insane - after all, it's not as if pass and 2♥ have greatly differing expected outcomes. But just to show how conditional probabilities can change, imagine:

 

Event 1 - 1. LHO passed and partner opened 2♦ in second seat. Now, after RHO's pass it would be unreasonable to conclude that partner has anything other than the strong balanced variant.

[mgoetze]

Event 1 - 1. LHO passed and partner opened 2♦ in second seat. Now, after RHO's pass it would be unreasonable to conclude that partner has anything other than the strong balanced variant.

Unless, of course, the opponents are playing an unreasonable defense to Multi.

[PhilKing]

Unless, of course, the opponents are playing an unreasonable defense to Multi.

 

I guess so - and the conditional probability they play such a defence has gone up hugely.

[jallerton]

MP club game, fav vuln, pard opens a multi 2♦ in first seat, passed to you. Your hand:

 

♥xx ♦QTxxxxx ♣Jxxx

 

Anything to say?

 

[multi is weak 2M, strong acol 2 in the minors, or massive balanced]

 

How strong is the 'massive balanced' option?

[Cyberyeti]

How strong is the 'massive balanced' option?

 

OP said 24-25 further up the thread

[helene_t]

Unless, of course, the opponents are playing an unreasonable defense to Multi.

You probably refer to defences like

dbl = take-out on spades

pass = among other things a take-out double on hearts

 

But isn't it reasonable to pass first with some awkward hands, like hands with both majors?

[Wackojack]

My understanding of the EBU laws re the multi where the following are relavent to the discussion

 

11G6 The multi 2 ♦ must contain a weak option and one or 2 strong options.

(ii) At least 1 strong option must be of reasoble frequency.

(v) Responder is expected to explore game possibilities if his hand justifies it opposite the stronger option of opener's multi 2♦

 

If these rules have not been changed recently then the questions that arise are:

What is a reasonable frequency? 24+ balanced = about 1 in 2000 hands. 20+ bal = about 1 in 100 hands.

Then you could argue that if your strong option is bal 20 you could reasonably pass as game is still speculative whereas opposite 24+ you MUST explore further.

 

I play multi with one partner in EBU land so I would like an answer.

[helene_t]

You must be looking at the old level 3, Jack.

 

Weak-only is ok at level 4

[PhilKing]

You must be looking at the old level 3, Jack.

 

Weak-only is ok at level 4

 

But what he is suggesting is that if you do include a strong option, you can't just float it when you don't see partner's lips move.

[Cyberyeti]

My understanding of the EBU laws re the multi where the following are relavent to the discussion

 

11G6 The multi 2 ♦ must contain a weak option and one or 2 strong options.

(ii) At least 1 strong option must be of reasoble frequency.

(v) Responder is expected to explore game possibilities if his hand justifies it opposite the stronger option of opener's multi 2♦

 

If these rules have not been changed recently then the questions that arise are:

What is a reasonable frequency? 24+ balanced = about 1 in 2000 hands. 20+ bal = about 1 in 100 hands.

Then you could argue that if your strong option is bal 20 you could reasonably pass as game is still speculative whereas opposite 24+ you MUST explore further.

 

I play multi with one partner in EBU land so I would like an answer.

 

Strong 2m is also in there and frequent enough.

 

I also remember that there is some latitude from a case where somebody passed a multi with a hand with 5 spades and 6 diamonds and about 15 points. That partner had a weak 2 in hearts was reckoned to be so much more likely than a balanced 21-22 in this case that it was fine to pass.