QAY Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 Hello all, I have a question regerding a real tournament. What conditions, if any, must exist that declarer may change a played card, played by obvious misstake. and what is considered as played card, also from defence, and dummy, What conditions must exist for amy player to change Her/his mind. If possible in more detail? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 For a defender, a card is played if he holds it so that it is possible for his partner to see its face. It is not a requirement that his partner actually see it. For dummy, a card is considered played if declarer names it, touches it, or otherwise indicates which one to play. Declearer has more room. Declarer must play a card from his hand if he holds it face up and touching or nearly touching the table, or maintained the card in such a position as to indicate that it has been played. When can a card played be taken back? That is covered in law 47, I paste it below for you. LAW 47 - RETRACTION OF CARD PLAYED A. To Comply with Penalty A card once played may be withdrawn to comply with a penalty (but a defender's withdrawn card may become a penalty card, see Law 49). B. To Correct an Illegal Play A played card may be withdrawn to correct an illegal or simultaneous play (see Law 58 for simultaneous play; and, for defenders, see Law 49, penalty card). C. To Change an Inadvertent Designation A played card may be withdrawn without penalty after a change of designation as permitted by Law 45C4(;). D. Following Opponent's Change of Play After an opponent's change of play, a played card may be withdrawn without penalty (but see Law 62C2) to substitute another card for the one played. E. Change of Play Based on Misinformation 1. Lead Out of Turn A lead out of turn may be retracted without penalty if the leader was mistakenly informed by an opponent that it was his turn to lead (LHO should not accept the lead). 2. Retraction of Play (a) No One Has Subsequently Played A player may retract the card he has played because of a mistaken explanation of an opponent's call or play and before a corrected explanation, but only if no card was subsequently played to that trick. An opening lead may not be retracted after dummy has faced any card. (:) One or More Subsequent Plays Made When it is too late to correct a play, under (a) preceding, Law 40C applies. F. Illegal Retraction Except as provided in A through E preceding, a card once played may not be withdrawn. PART IIPENALTY CARD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdulmage Posted February 28, 2005 Report Share Posted February 28, 2005 That's not entirely correct. There is a little thing called "change of thought". If the declarer puts the card down on the table and in the same motion puts it back in to his hand, it is NOT considered played. HOWEVER, if the declarer puts the K of spades down, and then in his mind goes "oops, I should have played the J of spades" and switches it to the J of spades, that is a "change of thought" and at this point, the director should be called, the declarer will most likely be taken away from the table to be asked his justification for switching the card and whether it was done in the same motion. If it was not done in same motion, the original card stands as played. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted February 28, 2005 Report Share Posted February 28, 2005 That's not entirely correct. There is a little thing called "change of thought". If the declarer puts the card down on the table and in the same motion puts it back in to his hand, it is NOT considered played. Interesting. I challenge you to show me the law to support this claim. Here I quote the World Bridge Federation official laws... specifically, LAW 45 - CARD PLAYED, section C - Compulsory Play of Card, subsection 2. Declarer's Card (45C2) which states...Declarer must play a card from his hand held face up, touching or nearly touching the table, or maintained in such a position as to indicate that it has been played. Against this very specific requirement that declarer is compelled (MUST) play a card from his hand that is held face up near or tourchng the table, I can find nothing that allows declarer to "put a card down on the table" and then in a single motion pick it back up. Of course, declarer can not have an exposed card, if he drops his cards, that doesn't count as played. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgr Posted February 28, 2005 Report Share Posted February 28, 2005 That's not entirely correct. There is a little thing called "change of thought". If the declarer puts the card down on the table and in the same motion puts it back in to his hand, it is NOT considered played. Interesting. I challenge you to show me the law to support this claim. Here I quote the World Bridge Federation official laws... specifically, LAW 45 - CARD PLAYED, section C - Compulsory Play of Card, subsection 2. Declarer's Card (45C2) which states...Declarer must play a card from his hand held face up, touching or nearly touching the table, or maintained in such a position as to indicate that it has been played. Against this very specific requirement that declarer is compelled (MUST) play a card from his hand that is held face up near or tourchng the table, I can find nothing that allows declarer to "put a card down on the table" and then in a single motion pick it back up. Of course, declarer can not have an exposed card, if he drops his cards, that doesn't count as played. Law 45.C.4.B:Correction of Inadvertent Designation " A player may, without penalty, change an inadvertent designation if he does so without pause for thought; but if an opponent has, in turn, played a card that was legal before the change in designation, that opponent may withdraw without penalty the card so played and substitute another (see Law 47E)." ..but how will a declarer prove he didn't change his mind while changing the card? I don"t think you can play a card inadvertent, or at least it will be very exceptional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdulmage Posted February 28, 2005 Report Share Posted February 28, 2005 Well, there's your LAW. I didn't have my copy of the book around, so I couldn't find it. Thanks kgr. I think the difference would be determined by whether or not the card was put down and before even a pause, it was swooped back up in to his hand versus having the card down there for 2-3 seconds, then bringing it back up for a change. It's one of those decisions you have to make as a director, ask all the people at the table, then pull the declarer away to ask him questions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgr Posted February 28, 2005 Report Share Posted February 28, 2005 I didn't have my copy of the book around, so I couldn't find it.You can find a copy at:http://www.math.aau.dk/~nwp/bridge/laws/I think the difference would be determined by whether or not the card was put down and before even a pause, it was swooped back up in to his hand versus having the card down there for 2-3 seconds, then bringing it back up for a change.How often does it happen that you play a card and that you immediatly see that it is wrong? f.i that you see that you will block a suit,...How often does it happen that you play a card and that you see that the card did 'change', that you really didn't want to pull that card from your hand?I think the first one happens far more then the second and nobody will see a pause. I tend not to grant the possibility to change the card based on this law.Except: in on-line bridge. This is the misclick (probably misused a lot when actually the first case applies). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted February 28, 2005 Report Share Posted February 28, 2005 That's not entirely correct. There is a little thing called "change of thought". If the declarer puts the card down on the table and in the same motion puts it back in to his hand, it is NOT considered played. Interesting. I challenge you to show me the law to support this claim. Here I quote the World Bridge Federation official laws... specifically, LAW 45 - CARD PLAYED, section C - Compulsory Play of Card, subsection 2. Declarer's Card (45C2) which states...Declarer must play a card from his hand held face up, touching or nearly touching the table, or maintained in such a position as to indicate that it has been played. Against this very specific requirement that declarer is compelled (MUST) play a card from his hand that is held face up near or tourchng the table, I can find nothing that allows declarer to "put a card down on the table" and then in a single motion pick it back up. Of course, declarer can not have an exposed card, if he drops his cards, that doesn't count as played. Law 45.C.4.B:Correction of Inadvertent Designation " A player may, without penalty, change an inadvertent designation if he does so without pause for thought; but if an opponent has, in turn, played a card that was legal before the change in designation, that opponent may withdraw without penalty the card so played and substitute another (see Law 47E)." ..but how will a declarer prove he didn't change his mind while changing the card? I don"t think you can play a card inadvertent, or at least it will be very exceptional. The issue here is a "designated" card instead of a played card. In the actual Law you quoted, you left out the key part that makes this distinction. Law 45, A says that players PLAY cards from their hands by removing them from hand and facing it. 45B says dummy plays a card when Declarer names it. 45C does with compulsary PLAY of a card. 45C1 - defender play, 45C2 - declarer play, 45C3 - play of card from dummy deliberately touched by declarer. No where in here is there an option for inadvertant "PLAY" of a card. Now we come to 45C4...Let's see all of it... 45C4. Named or Designated Card (a.) Play of Named Card A card must be played if a player names or otherwise designates it as the card he proposes to play. (b.) Correction of Inadvertent Designation A player may, without penalty, change an inadvertent designation if he does so without pause for thought; but if an opponent has, in turn, played a card that was legal before the change in designation, that opponent may withdraw without penalty the card so played and substitute another Here "named" is equavalent to "desingnated .45C4a clearly makes a distinction between PLAYED and "named" and "otherwise designates it" becasue it says at the card he "proposes to be played. The most obvious example is declarer playing from dummy. He might say "spade" then correct to "low spade" or "spade eight". If dummy is about to discard, he might say heart, then correct himself (if next hand hasn't played) if done so without hesitation or thought to say "diamond". Does this sound familar? Remember the last Bermuda Bowl hand this year, where the italian declearer "touched" a card to play because dummy had walked away. The touching it, as opposed to "desiginating it" made it played (compare 45C2 to 45C4b). Touching the card made it PLAYED, not designed. So even though he tried to swtich cards, BRIDGE LAWS would not allow it. A defender, especially a handicapped one, sometimes will desingate their card as or just before they play them. "A small spade" they might say as they struggle to get it played. The law, I believe, allows for the same inadvertent desgination and allows them to play another card if without apparent thought. The inadvertant designation rule is there to allow for "mis-speaking".. we all do it.... and the law allows you to correct for misspeaking if done without thought (and before the next hand plays). But if you PLAY A CARD... it is played, and can only be taken back to correct an irregularity or if the card played was based upon mis-information. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted February 28, 2005 Report Share Posted February 28, 2005 Well, there's your LAW. I didn't have my copy of the book around, so I couldn't find it. Thanks kgr. I think the difference would be determined by whether or not the card was put down and before even a pause, it was swooped back up in to his hand versus having the card down there for 2-3 seconds, then bringing it back up for a change. It's one of those decisions you have to make as a director, ask all the people at the table, then pull the declarer away to ask him questions. One doesn't have to rely on the American version of the Laws (they are the same on this topic however). The WBF laws are also available on line several places, The ones dealing with play are at this shortcut linkhttp://www.ecatsbridge.com/Documents/laws_...ws/chapter6.asp The entire WBF laws can be found at:The Laws of Duplicate Contract Bridge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdulmage Posted February 28, 2005 Report Share Posted February 28, 2005 Ok thank you both for links, so I have easier access to laws now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgr Posted March 1, 2005 Report Share Posted March 1, 2005 Ben, I did ask on blml mailing list and got reply: " A played card may not be withdrawn. A designated card may be withdrawn in certain cases [inadvertence, speed of change, etc]. So when declarer plays a card from hand it may not be changed: when he designates a card it may sometimes be. " Next time I'll believe you without double checking :D Koen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted March 1, 2005 Report Share Posted March 1, 2005 Next time I'll believe you without double checking :D Well I am right half the time, so next time, don't believe..as this was my time to be right... Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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