1S-2C-2S-4S vs 1S-2C-2H-2S

[manudude03]

No hand to go with this one. When I was in the debate that provoked my last atb topic, I had said that 1S-2C-2S-4S was a picture bid showing good clubs and spades and no red suit control. However, I have been trying to find references for this auction for my sanity and any references I find are saying that 1S-2C-2S-4S is just showing a minimum GF while 1S-2C-2H-4S is a picture bid, so I was wondering why there is a distinction between the 2 auctions. My first thought was that opener would be limited by the 2S bid, but what else is opener meant to do with something like AKJxxx AQx AQx x (make one of the red suits a bit weaker if you feel it is too strong for a 1S opener)

 

edit: title meant to read 1S-2C-2S-4S vs 1S-2C-2H-4S, can a mod fix this please

 

reedit: I guess it has something to do with the ability to set trumps at the 2 level. ps. the above of course in a 2/1 context.

Edited September 20, 2014 by manudude03

[mike777]

Al Roth many years ago wrote a book called picture bidding, you may wish to check it out

 

The Granovetters have written many articles referring to Roth and picture bidding over the years.

[yunling]

I learnt the method from cuebidding at Bridge by Ken Rexford.

[fromageGB]

To assign a meaning to the jump to 4♠ I think you also have to consider what a cheaper bid would mean. If you play nothing artificial it makes sense for a jump to game being minimum, and support at a lower level being stronger. If you play that a simple preference could be shorter than expected for a bid at that level, then you can play that a cheap support is shorter than normal, ideally looking for an alternative contract while unable to bid anything better. You can combine these in your examples:

1♠ 2♣, 2♥ 2♠ = only 2 card support, nothing much in diamonds, but willing opener to bid NT if he has only 5 spades and some diamonds

1♠ 2♣, 2♥ 3♠ = 3+ card support, 16+ or thereabouts, encouraging opener to cue if suitable

1♠ 2♣, 2♥ 4♠ = 3+ card support, 13-15 or thereabouts

 

Similar logic can apply whether opener shows a second suit or not.

 

On the other hand, if you play something artificial like non-serious 3NT, then any strength hand can support with 2♠, knowing that you can use your artificial convention to deny/show strength at a later stage. That means a jump to 4♠ can carry specific information, such as not just a non-serious hand, but one that has nothing to show should partner otherwise be seeking to cue bid.

 

The distinction between the auctions depends merely on what the alternatives are.

[helene_t]

In the second auction responder can bid 2, 3 or 4 so 4 must be something very specific