Grand - 7S or NT?

[jillybean]

3n response showing heart shortage is non standard, our responses are

3C minimum hand, with shortage

3D any hand, no shortage

3H club shortage, extras

3S diamond shortage, extras

3N shortage in other major, extras

[mikeh]

Interesting comments, thanks Mike.

 

From what you say, Jacoby2nt can be a poor tool for investigating slam. If I buy into this I am going to be rethinking everything I know about bidding major slams, Jacoby2nt is the tool to investigate slam, "everyone" plays it that way, I would be very surprised to see anyone at the club not using it with a 4 card game forcing raise, bar the few who play unusual systems.

 

Having said that, there have been other 'rules' I have thrown out after forum discussions so, I'm going to share your comments with my partner and revamp our slam bidding :)

I do NOT think J2N is a poor tool for investigating slam, any more than I think keycard is a poor tool for investigating slam.

 

I happen to think that a well-designed method allows for the partnership to have different tools for different situations, and that it is an error to think that 'all game force raises with 4+ trump' have to start with J2N, or 'all slam hands must use keycard at some point'.

 

I use J2N quite often. But I use it only when my hand suggests that the best way to evaluate for slam is to ask partner questions rather than invite a dialogue.

 

It is important to understand that a dislike of using a convention on some hand types is not at all the same as disliking the convention.

 

 

I tried to explain some of the factors that would cause me to 2/1 rather than J2N with the OP hand.

 

I also appreciate that J2N has the advantage of being simple, and it will lead to auctions in which the risk of misunderstanding is reduced. It significantly reduces the need for both partners to understand how to bid in a cooperative fashion. One of the (numerous) factors that separates experts from less-skilled players is the ability to have slow, exploratory auctions. However, if one aspires to move to the expert level, it is essential to try to bid more cooperatively when the hands suggest doing so. There are hands on which to take control. There are hands on which to blast. And there are hands on which to take one's time and involve partner. When one plays golf, one chooses the club according to the shot one needs to make. One doesn't haul out driver on every hole. So too in bridge.

[the hog]

With a bad diamond suit and slow values in hearts, I think this hand is qualified for a void splinter in clubs :unsure:

 

So 6 to the A is a "bad" D suit. Sorry, but that comment is SO funny. How many tricks do you think you have the potential to make opposite Kx?

[mike777]

Thanks JB for bringing this topic up. With a strong hand, 4 card support, outside suit and a void which action do we choose and why?

 

I emailed the responder hand around and got all three choices from some pretty good players.

 

One answer from a multi WC surprised me.

"2D, Jacoby type 2N and 4C splinter are all reasonable choices (and each could sometimes work well and other times not so much).

 

 

 

No strong opinion among them"

 

I will request him to expand upon his reply if possible.

[chasetb]

I would have splintered with 4♦, and consider 2NT a distant 2nd. Ace sixth isn't bad, but I would expect 2♦ and then supporting Spades to show 2/top 3 in ♦.

[jillybean]

I do NOT think J2N is a poor tool for investigating slam, any more than I think keycard is a poor tool for investigating slam.

I did say J2N CAN be a poor tool for investigating slam, it appears to have been a poor choice here and I understand your reasoning above.

To help my understanding would you please comment on hand types that are most suitable for a J2N bid.

 

 

Chasteb - 4♦ for me shows a much weaker hand, likely we will make 4 but I have no slam interest.

[mikeh]

I did say J2N CAN be a poor tool for investigating slam, it appears to have been a poor choice here and I understand your reasoning above.

To help my understanding would you please comment on hand types that are most suitable for a J2N bid.

 

 

 

 

I would happily J2N with hands that have solid opening values (not a 4333 12 count) and no specific constructive message to convey. I won't have a 5 card side suit, in general, tho maybe a suit such as AQJxx might not disqualify an otherwise appropriate hand. J2N should be used for hands on which the answers to whatever questions your J2N asks are likely to be important.

 

For example, basic J2N uses a jump to game as a flat minimum. I wouldn't use J2n in those circumstances if I could readily construct some game bids that still make slam good, and some that make slam poor, because I'd now be guessing at the 5-level, knowing almost nothing about the hand. Personally, I play more sophisticated methods (most minimums start with 3♣) so I don't have that problem.

 

J2n is very bad at identifying 3rd round controls, so if I have a long suit on which 3rd round, as opposed to 1st or 2nd, control is needed, I will generally bid that suit instead of J2N.

 

That problem can exist with 4 card suits as well, but since 2♦ and (over 1♠) 2♥ promise 5 card suits, J2N is often the only realistic option.

 

I think it far easier to describe reasons for not bidding J2N than to attempt to explain the wide range of hands on which I would use the bid, especially since whether I use it depends, sometimes, on what flavour of J2N we are playing.

[chasetb]

I did say J2N CAN be a poor tool for investigating slam, it appears to have been a poor choice here and I understand your reasoning above.

To help my understanding would you please comment on hand types that are most suitable for a J2N bid.

 

Chase - 4♦ for me shows a much weaker hand, likely we will make 4 but I have no slam interest.

While I wasn't the intended target for that question, I have a few guidelines as well:

1.) 4+ card support, GF raise

2.) Usually a balanced hand. If there is shortness, 17/18+ dummy points (13/14+ HCP) and intending to show it or RKC

3.) If a 5 or 6-card suit, cannot have 2/top 3 honors.

 

What are your splinter ranges? For me, a direct splinter shows 0-1 cards in the suit, 9-12 HCP, and 12-16(17) dummy points. I would evaluate your hand as 17 dummy points, and go the low road because of HCP. Here, partner has enough to push for the slam, and I hope my partner and I would be able to bid the grand.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

[hv=pc=n&s=skq842hadkjt9ca84&n=sat93hqj4da76542c&d=e&v=0&b=14&a=p1sp2np3np6sp7sppp]266|200[/hv]

 

2N = jacoby

 

I've been toying with the idea ( surely not new ) of using Jac2NT to ask for a 2nd suit ( 4+ cards ) rather than shortness. Here it hits paydirt :

South

1S - 2NT!

3D - 4NT 6Ace KC( North violating RKC-ask with a void and an open suit )

5D( 1 or 4 ) - 5H ( ♠Q-ask )

5NT ( ♠Q and no outside K ) - 7NT ( counting 5s, 6d, and 2 Aces [ ♥ & ♣ ] = 13 )

[jillybean]

I guess our splinter range is something like 10-13 but I don't pay too much attention to points and AT9x,QJx,Axxxxx,V is too strong for a 4C response (I assume you meant ♣ splinter, not ♦)

 

Just for fun I had my partner bid the hand again but use a 2♦ response.

 

1♠ 2♦

3♦ 3♠ "while I might like to bid 5C, I think it is more important at this stage to show the spade fit"

4♣ 4♦

4♥ 6♣

this is where we stopped as I didn't know what 6♣ was - intended as club splinter or exclusion, we obviously need more discussion.

If I know 6♣ is exclusion I respond 6♠ and we may miss the Grand. (this is NOT an endorsement for the actual auction we had :) )

[mikeh]

1♠ 2♦

 

4♥ 5♦

 

7♦ 7N

 

 

4♥ kickback in diamonds. If ever there was a hand on which S could properly ask for keys right away, it would be this one, assuming 2♦ was gf, promising 5+ cards.

 

I doubt that one can construct a legitimate 2♦ response where slam has no play....ok.....xxx KQ AQxxx Qxx? But I defy anyone not to be driving to at least the 5 level over a 2♦ gf response so keycard can hardly be wrong

 

Responder shows 2 with the Queen....I would consider doing it with Axxxxx and with the 7th diamond it is mandatory. Partner cannot be keycarding with out a fit, so probably has the Q anyway, in which case we can announce the extra length, and if he lacks the Q, surely our 7th card makes it reasonable to assume no losers.

 

Opener can count 13 tricks on almost all layouts that include the spade A and the diamond AQ.

 

The only wrinkle would be if he had unexpected shortness in hearts such that we couldn't pitch his clubs on our spades, which rate to provide 4 winners even opposite a stiff spade A, and of course he might have the club K, etc. 7 has to be overwhelmingly on.

 

Responder knows that opener has the KQ of spades....he can hardly blast grand with Kxxxx never having allowed responder to show or deny spades. In any event, using keycard means that opener thinks he can count winners, which again is impossible with Kxxxx.

 

Finally, even if opener has lost his mind, if opener has Kxxxx in spades, we're going to need to pick up spades to make a diamond grand, so worrying about this is a snare and illusion. On any hand consistent with 7♦, we have at least 14 top tricks.

[aguahombre]

Mike, you had it nailed way back there with the stuff about not using a toy such as J2N just because you have it in your kit bag.

 

Now, I wonder. I never could bid 4-3-7-0 patterns correctly. However..as Opener, I could splinter 3H over 2D to guarantee a 4-fit in Diamonds before wooding, and then Responder would be delighted to show the alledged Diamond queen. After Opener gets things off his chest, Responder can then only count 13 tricks instead of 14...so the grand is still ok.

[jillybean]

The real problem for me (and I guess many others) is J2N was the only toy we had in our kit bag to show a 4 card gf raise.

2m and a later M raise could show 3 but never 4, with 4 we would have made a J2N response. I am going to need to do a lot more thinking before responding to my partners opening 1M bid.

[mikeh]

The real problem for me (and I guess many others) is J2N was the only toy we had in our kit bag to show a 4 card gf raise.

2m and a later M raise could show 3 but never 4, with 4 we would have made a J2N response. I am going to need to do a lot more thinking before responding to my partners opening 1M bid.

That's circular reasoning and unduly limits your approach to the game. You play that the delayed raise promises 3 but there is no bridge logic to that rule. Be less concenred about 'rules' and think about bridge as a conversation.

 

2♦ then showing real spades says: I have a game force hand with 5+ diamonds and we have a spade fit....how do you like things so far?

 

 

Rather than constraining your bids to mean: I have a gf hand with 5+ diamonds and I have exactly 3 spades.

 

See how liberating the first method is?

[jillybean]

Yes, yes! , I like it and said earlier this was going to revamp my slam bidding.

 

This is a real epiphany for me (laugh if you must but I'm excited) and I think will be as significant as when I adopted 2♣/1M 'gf balanced or clubs' and my fellow bridge players warned my partner about my obscure and unusual methods.

[aguahombre]

Yes, yes! , I like it and said earlier this was going to revamp my slam bidding.

 

This is a real epiphany for me (laugh if you must but I'm excited) and I think will be as significant as when I adopted 2♣/1M 'gf balanced or clubs' and my fellow bridge players warned my partner about my obscure and unusual methods.

Yep, that would be another thing to get rid of. It can be great, but not without consent, multiple hours of discussion, and --- again --- knowing when NOT to use it.