UNDO

[mackinnon]

I am playing on different sites and interesting about undo

 

Zone has no undo to click You say STOP and players stop while director comes to table and either resets or not.

 

Swan no undo allowed during Tournament

 

e-bridge is a mixed bag undo can be clicked, but opponet always reject ( not me) and because bidding continues, you have no time to get help. Soon a version of UNDO will, when clicked , automatically stop bidding and call Director who makes the decision. It has not been tried as yet, but, once in place, will will be a welcome addition to the game and was changed so e-bridge would COMPLY WITH ACBL LAWS OF BRIDGE.

 

The Law is "A PLAYER MAY CHANGE THEIR CALL AS LONG AS THEIR PARTNER HAS NOT MADE A CALL"

 

BBO does not allow UNDO in ACBL Tournaments.

 

Players are using bidding boxes in live bridge and and in nternet---a keyboard and mouse. Both lend themselves to an easy wrong bid by misclick ot pullng wrong csrd out of box.

 

I, personally, think the people who set up these games put an undo in for a good reason---to allow a change of call on misclick---otherwise, WHY ??

 

In BBO, the Pass is just above a number and if you do click on the number , you still have to find the suit, so protected s little, but if you hit pass by mistake, it is instant---so I think we should be allowing undo's and thereby be in compliance with the Laws

 

I really is very unfair for a misclick to cause a zero when no chane was given to correct the bid

 

OKAY------Now what do you think?????

[inquiry]

if undo's are allowed, i always allwo them. if opponent abuses undo's, i finish the hand. thank them for the game, then find another table.

 

ben

[hotShot]

It is up to the director to allow undo's or not.

 

I usually accept undo's, if they are asked for immediately. So I wait about 2 seconds before I enter my bid or play my card. During bidding I'allow it, even after my bid. But during play, I sometimes reject once I played my card, if the misclick seems to be to helpful. Typical example for a reject is if a player leads a small, single card from dummy, puts down the Q and ask for an undo after I covered with the K. If asked before I play my card, I'll accept.

 

I avoid to ask for undo's even if I misclick, because this is a game, there is nothing at stake. If I loose one due to a misclick, i don't care to much.

I apologise to partner after the game.

It's to easy to abuse the undo feature and sometimes creates some unpleasent mood at the table.

If I would start to misclick more often, I would write a post to "Suggestions for Software" and ask for an option that one could turn on, that opens a "Confirm bidding/playing: XXX" dialog, after each action.

[Free]

Imo misclicks are overrated. People somehow can't manage to press the right button, but they actually can click on the "undo" without any problem :rolleyes:

 

For me it depends a lot on the opponents if I allow undo's or not. If they're friendly, no problem at all. But if they can't even say "hi" or if they're rude then they won't get any favors from me.

This having said, in the main bridgeclub I usually allow undo's. In tourneys however, I usually don't allow them. Obviously, in the main I usually play with friends ;)

 

I seldom ask for an undo. My opinion is that misclicks are plain stupid, like miscounting. Deal with it and live another day... Next time you'll look twice before clicking.

 

And yes, I've heard all the arguments: I have a bad mouse, I have Parkinson, blabla. But as I said in the beginning: somehow they're quite fast to press the undo-button with success...

[pork rind]

:D i always grant undos. i seem to only misclick when playing in a game where undos are not allowed ( :rolleyes: . i tend to watch opponents that may be trying to disclose the location of a card by asking for an undo. if i think thats their purpose i mark them as an enemy and dont play with them again. i hardly ever misclick on bidding but seem to do it in play on occasion( ;) )

[shoeless]

I have kibbitzed some of the finest players in the world on this site and undo's are granted by them without hesitation. Seems the lower the calibre of player the less likely they are to accept undo's. Come on folks it's just a game! The one thing I do like about Swan bidding boxes is that you select the bid and then you have to click bid or bid/alert. Think that cuts down on a lot of misclicks. I really don't want to score well because someone misclicked - if I do, the only thing it says about my game is ........ nothing good thats for sure!

[fred]

I am not sure if the people who have responded so far have fully understood the purpose of Jean's post (a post I suggested that she make as the result of an e-mail she sent me on this subject).

 

The purpose of this thread is to find out peoples' opinions on what our Undo policy should be in ACBL tournaments. I don't think that it matters if you play in ACBL tournaments or not in order to offer an opinion, but keep in mind that you can win ACBL masterpoints in these tournaments. Whatever you happen to think of ACBL masterpoints, what is relevant here is that these things have definite value to a significant % of our membership.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[nikos59]

I have never played in ACBL tournaments and I don't have

any plans to do so, but since Fred asked it seems to me

that if you accept undos then you have to introduce a host

of rules as to their use, in order to prevent abuse. This is

fine by me, because if the bridge lawyers have their hands

full where I do not play, then they won't bother me where

I play.

 

On the other hand it seems to me absurd to ban undos

in ACBL tourneys when f2f bridge actually allows the

equivalent of the undos. Unless I am horribly wrong,

it is not an infraction if I say "2S... sorry 2H" under

the same breath or, using bidding boxes, you can

take the 2S card, start placing at the table and then

say "sorry, 2H". The ACBL has even accepted an Undo

by a champion after the board was over,

when she just used an expletive.

 

So, there is but one solution, poor Fred & Uday. Implement

a button that would prompt the player to validate his call/play/choice,

then ban undos. But please, do this only in the ACBL tourneys

(they already are playing a different species of bridge).

[hrothgar]

Undo's are one of the most controversial parts of bridge. Disagreements regarding whether or not to allow them plague both the Online and Face-to-Face environment. Anyone else remember the "Oh *****" controversy...

 

Regretfully, I don't think that it will ever be possible to design a truly adequate implementation. As Nikos suggested, the best way to deal with this problem in isolation would be to add a "Confirmation" feature. After clicking on a bid/play, require that players confirm that they meant to play this card.

 

I recognize that this will have an impact on the tempo of the game, so the "Confirmation" feature should be an option that can be enabvled at the point in time that the table/tournament is being created.

 

My suspicion is that most player would choose not to enable this feature. The major exception would seem to be major tournaments. If there were any significnat "stake" to the results, there would be a strong incentive for to minimize potential sources of conflict.

 

For more typical play, it might be reasonable to implement and Undo timer. If someone asked for an undo within X seconds, it would be permitted...

 

With this said and done, does anyone have an information about the relative frequency of "incidents" involving undos?

[ArcLight]

I always grant Bidding UNDOS, and usually play UNDOS.

 

I play mostly in BIL. I see people making bidding mistakes, such as missing a Jacoby transfer and instead raising the relay suit. Or screwing up a Blackwood resposnse. I will actually ask the opponent if they understand their pards bid, and then ask them to request an UNDO (which I grant).

 

During the play (after the opening lead) I'm a bit less likely to grant an UNDO, but I usually will if they ask for it quickly. Usually its obvious. But on a few occasions am Opp asks for an undo after a couple of cards have been played, and there was time in between to ask for the undo. I still grant it, because I paly in BIL, but that kind of UNDO I think it less acceptable in more advanced games/tournaments.

 

 

I was playing a hand, and chose the card I wanted to lead, and clicked on it. Unfortuneatly I didn't realize that there is a small pause before the 4th pass, and then the automatic "re-ordering" of the suits. As a result the card I intended to lead was moved to another spot and the card I selected was plainly stupid. I immediately hit UNDO, and yet one of the opps gave me a hard time. I was quite annoyed and we argued for several minutes.

[hotShot]

There are a lot off things where online bridge is superior to f2f bridge. No revokes, no insufficient bids, alerts without your partner to know and so on.

One of the things that is inferios is bidding and playing of cards.

In f2f bridge you pull out a card from your deck, and while doing so, you have time to see what your are actually doing. If it's the wrong card, no matter if playing or bidding, you see it while you are doing in. If you click on a card or a bid, and miss it by a pixel or two, microseconds later the right or wrong card or bid is moving.

 

The rules allow changing of bids, und strictly described conditions. Some of the allowed change scan have consequences like, excluding partner from further bidding, or if you end up on the defensive end, lead restiction or similar.

Changing of bids stay unpunished if they don't produce unauthorised information, because you never intended to give them. The best example I know is passing in a Blackwood sequence showing 2 keycards are missing. The player never inteded to pass, he wanted to stop the auction in the ageed fit.

 

So in f2f bridge the TD has to authorise undo's. This has a different quality than the undo's that are authorized by opponents.

There are a few things that an online TD can't do, because limitation of the software.

He can't authorize undo's, can't give split scores (other than the AVE ones) and he can't give procedural penalties. He can't apply lead restrictions as well.

 

So there are a few laws that cannot be satisfied yet. I guess we will see all this in the future. Until than I think not allowing undo's is producing less distortion than allowing undo's. Because allowing or deneying an undo will effect all scores of a board.

[MickyB]

For online bridge to fall into line with F2F bridge, undos must be allowed only for mechanical errors during bidding - i.e. misclicks, not changes of mind, and any card played cannot be changed. However this would seem to be illogical for online bridge - why allow changes of misclicks for bidding but not cardplay? If practical, my preference would be for the undo button to ask the TD for permission. This would reduce bad feeling between players, although possibly not towards TDs! It could also produce a fairer game than could otherwise be achieved - no stupid misclicks, redress if the misclicker takes advantage of the next card played, etc. If you accept that staffing this would be impractical, how about undo-reject-undo calls the TD?

 

Another option would be to have undos recorded in the hand record or the TD notified, so that redress is available for any UI, gains from the next call made or card played and changes of mind.

 

Whatever happens, assuming undos aren't done away with - I think players should be educated on the matter, so they know that they should allow undos for misclicks, and shouldn't ask for undos if they just change their mind about what to bid.

Edited February 24, 2005 by MickyB

[Rebound]

Simply, I always grant undos. I ocasionally request them myself. I spaz out sometimes and click the wrong thing. As someone else said, I would rather win by playing well, not due to a misclick by the opponents. So I would favor the undo feature for ACBL tourneys although I play in them infrequently. That having been said, I am inclined to agree that a tournament is different from playing in the Main Room and merits a certain level of attention such that they probably should not be required on the whole.

[inquiry]

Should ACBL event allow Undo's?

 

No. The director's life is hard enough.. if you add the problems undo will cause, it will only get worse. But I guess you could run several undo allowed events in ACBL to see how much extra trouble it really is. IF it is not much, then I guess it would be alright. I am just worried about the problems of someone who allows an undo on a bid, and the bid changes from 2S to 3NT... The problem with this is I could see one meant to click 2NT and hit 2S by mistake, or one meant to bid 3NT and hit 3S by mistake, but I don't believe in double mistakes. Then there is the problem when, if undo's are "allowed" and someone doesn't allow an undo request.

 

Ben

[Gerardo]

An alternative for tourneys could be to allow UNDO ONLY to director(s).

 

Director evaluates the request and decide to grant it or not.

[sceptic]

I dont see any problem with undos, you either grant or deny them, I think if you dont like opps decision not to grant undos then, or you feel that the person requests them to frequently, say your good byes and find someone else to play with, there are a vast quantity of players you will be happy with in this site.

 

In the tournaments, if it is set for no undos, then people have to concentrate on what they are doing and that probably is not a bad thing, I don't think it should be at the directors discrection as he / she has enough to do with out adding a further burden.

 

may be add grant or deny undos at the table option for the lounges, that way whoever hosts can play their way.

 

I dont remember the last time I denied (if ever) an undo, although I must say I have been tempted, but as some one that has requested them, I am happy in my own mind that misclicks are easy to do, so I like to give the benifit of the doubt.

[Double !]

1) Yes, definitely remember the "oh s--t" controversy. In fact, I believe that I have seen the player involved playing on BBO on a number of occasions (assuming that my memory is correct/ always a risk).

2) I definitely believe that "undos" in acbl tourneys should be permitted provided that they were done in the same breath. lololol

3) seriously, I believe that the idea of permiting "undos" only at the discretion of the director should be considered in certain situations. For example, I was declaring a contract and, in the course of cashing out my tricks, I accidentally hit a wrong card that resulted in my losing the remainder of the tricks versus winning them. This was so obviously an error of hitting the wrong card because, given my remaining cards, to play the card that was struck was the most obviously illogical card in my hand to play at that time. (Yes, I could have simply claimed, but I elected to play the hand out.) However, when the director was called, I was informed that there was nothing that could be done. It's in situations similar to this, where it is overwhelmingly clear that a mechanical error has been made, that undos should be considered. Otherwise, IMO, the concept of possible reasonable alternative bid or play should be the guideline as it is in tournament play.

4) BTW, I always permit undos when playing in a team game or main room. Why not give an undo? Failure to do so only results in some degree of resentlment, not what we're looking for on BBO. It's not the Nationals here, it's a friendly albeit competitive bridge site that we all should be grateful for.

[Guest Jlall]

I always grant undos. That being said I think in ACBL tournaments the easiest policy is no undos. You misclick you live with it. That way there will be no hard feelings about a director ruling, the game will not be slowed down waiting for a director ruling, there will no abuse, etc. It will just make things easier.

[TimG]

The Law is "A PLAYER MAY CHANGE THEIR CALL AS LONG AS THEIR PARTNER HAS NOT MADE A CALL"

That's not all the Laws have to say on the matter, in fact I cannot find that exact quote in the Laws. Here is what I found:

 

"A. Immediate Correction of Inadvertency: Until his partner makes a call, a player may substitute his intended call for an inadvertent call but only if he does so, or attempts to do so, without pause for thought. If legal, his last call stands without penalty; if illegal, it is subject to the applicable Law."

 

There is also a section for "Delayed or Purposeful Correction".

 

My opinion is that a misclick falls under section A and that correction of the inadvetent call should be allowed, especially in sanctioned events. (It is less important in non-sanctioned events because there is no "prize" available.)

 

Since the correction (or attempted correction) must be immediate, I would suggest that when the next player has made a call, the period available to correct the inadvertent call has expired. This may preclude some cases of attempting correction "without pause for thought" but the line must be drawn somewhere and the determination of "without pause for thought" is much more difficult online than it is in person.

 

Corrections that follow this thought process: "Wait, we're playing 1430, not 0314, I need an undo" are not made "without pause for thought". I believe that in the pickup atmosphere of online bridge, there are many of these types of undo requests. And, that these requests are an abuse of undos.

 

My general approach is to allow any undo request regardless of whether I think the correction would be lawful. But, I can certainly understand some players' frustration with being asked to grant an undo that they think is not "without pause for thought".

 

Tim

[epeeist]

If undos are to be permitted in ACBL tournaments, then there would probably have to be a rule that reasonable (immediately asked for, and in the case of a played card no card yet played by next opponent) undos "must" be granted (call TD if in doubt). Otherwise, whether or not one was granted permission for an undo would vary from opponent to opponent which would be (or would be perceived as) unfair.

 

Although I am normally be inclined to grant an undo, I admit that if I were playing against a rude opponent, I would find it hard to be gracious -- unless there were a rule that reasonable undos would have to be granted.

 

Yes, there are other solutions/aids (e.g. confirmation of bid/card necessary in tournament, delay before bid "final" or card played visible to others) but those would require software changes (as opposed merely to a rule change ;) ).

 

The availability of undos might also help in those annoying situations where one makes a bid before an opponent has alerted his or her preceding bid.

 

All that said, I don't see a big need for undos in ACBL tournaments (that may be a selfish view, I rarely misclick and if I do, hey it's only $1). I think it might create more problems if undos were available. Also, though less attractive, someone could always switch to the "classic" view to help prevent miscarding, at least.

 

And of course, if undos were available, one would lose a convenient excuse for atrocious bids and plays... ("Sorry p, I must have misclicked") :)

[mackinnon]

I did not ever mean that during the play that an undo shoul ever be used, and this s true in f/f Once a card is played, it is played so only in bidding did I think we should take another look at Undo as several mentioned in their opinion in f/f you can always change your csll as long as your partner has not bid.

 

I believe it is unreasonable to think players could use undo to their advantage. What would be the point when it is a partnership game, and you are trying to give a partner the best information you can by your system, One person said in watching vugraph with top world players undo are always accepted and I have noticed the same thing so if they are accepting UNDO's unequvocally , are we not entitled to the same compliance of the Laws of Bridge????

[hotShot]

At vugraph, all bids and cards are are played by the vugraph operator, he useses undo's if he made a mistake following the action at the table. So you cannot use this as an argument.

 

The benefit of illegal undo's is much bigger during play than during bidding.

Because you don't need a partner that agreed on the meaning.

 

Imagine the following sequence:

1♠ - pass - 4♠* -dbl undone to

1♠ - pass - 3♠ lowering the risk by one trick

 

Take a 12 board ACBL tourney. Each top adds about 8% points to your score. This move can make the difference between 58% and only 50%.

[bearmum]

I am not sure if the people who have responded so far have fully understood the purpose of Jean's post (a post I suggested that she make as the result of an e-mail she sent me on this subject).

 

The purpose of this thread is to find out peoples' opinions on what our Undo policy should be in ACBL tournaments. I don't think that it matters if you play in ACBL tournaments or not in order to offer an opinion, but keep in mind that you can win ACBL masterpoints in these tournaments. Whatever you happen to think of ACBL masterpoints, what is relevant here is that these things have definite value to a significant % of our membership.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

IF all you want an opinion on is if UNDO should be allowed in ACBL Tourneys - my vote is NEVER MAINLY becaues ACBL points are awarded for these tourneys

 

I think that in ALL Pay tourneys undos should NEVER be allowed {JUST my opinion :) }

[Rain]

I believe its ACBL host's decision whether to allow or ban undo from the tourneys, not BBO. In response to mack's opening post.

 

Personally, I hate the idea of undoes. I will probably grant undo if the next card hasn't been played or if I'm trying to be nice or if its an obvious misclick. Far too many undo seekers are doing it not because of a misclick from bad mouse, but rather, because of changing of mind. I will be really irritated inside, however, and won't be able to stay long at a table with non concentrating oppos/partner.

 

I prefer people I play with to concentrate and click on the correct card. I think I've asked for an undo once in my life, in a brief competitive frenzy when I misclicked and couldn't bear the thought of losing imps due to stupidity. I also tell my partners I hate undoes and never want them to ask for one, prefer to pay the price for carelessness.

 

Rain

[TimG]

I think we should take another look at Undo as several mentioned in their opinion in f/f you can always change your csll as long as your partner has not bid.

I don't recall ever seeing a player in ftf bridge attempt to change their call after LHO had made a call. And, if you read the Laws, you will find that such a change is not without possible penalty.