Flame Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 [hv=s=sq1054hq8643da1052c]133|100|[/hv]imps1♣-1♥1♠- ???what is your bid ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeartA Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 I bid 4S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 4s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 4S. Can't afford to miss a game at Imps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 guess im missing the boat but im bidding 2S. Club void isnt all its cracked up to be Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikestar Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 3S if invitational, else 2C. I'd shoot 4S if partner might be balanced but if this sequence shows real clubs, the void is a big negative--but 2S is too much an underbid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 I also don't get 4♠, your hand isn't exactly the best you can have with that void in ♣. 2♠ on the other hand is not good enough either. So I'll take the middle road: 3♠ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awm Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 Like a lot of people, I agree that this hand seems to fall in the invitational range. But why bid 3♠? It seems like bidding 2♣ invitational checkback is a win here. After partner's bid I can bid my spades. This seems to have several advantages: (1) If partner's rejecting my invite, we can play 2♠, surely better than 3♠(2) If partner's hand is borderline, he can make some sort of try over 2♠ which might get us to game when it's right and to 3♠ otherwise.(3) Perhaps RHO will be so kind as to double for the lead of a club, which if partner doesn't rewind is a sure indicator that 4♠ is right. In fact I don't see any reasons at all to prefer 3♠ over 2♣. -- Adam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 Well. I think you will either make 2 or 4, so you might as well shoot for the moon, particularly at Imps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 i think partner is either 4(14)4 or 4xx5.. my hand loses 2 or 4 points, depending on his, and clubs are a problem.. i think 2S is good enough Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 1♣-1♥1♠- ??? ♠Q1054 ♥ Q8643 D A1052 ♣ The problem is how can pd assessA9xxKxKJxxxxx Don't you want to be in 4 at Imps? I do! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flytoox Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 3S. If we have 4S pd will bid it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winstonm Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 I'm a 3S bidder here because it's imps and I want to invite. If pard had opened 1S, I would insist on game in the 9-card fit but unless pard holds extra values this 4/4 fit won't play that well with a trump lead and continuation. winstonm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 This is a difficult choice. Bidding game depends upon how much value you place in a void in your partners first suit, and how useful you think the queen of hearts will be on this auction. As we see, opinions are highly variable from the polar opposites of leap to game to bid a cautious 2♠, with a number of middle of the road bids that will get you to 3♠ with a chance for four. The bottom line, however, even if you invite, is that game will likely make or not make on based upon how useufl your club void is. How might you quantify the bidding choices from 2♠ to 3♠ to 4♠? Well, if you use ZAR fit points (will not really help you here btw) you could justify each of bid. Let's see how. 1) Zar counts hcp (8 in this case), plus two points for each card in your longest suit (10 for five hearts), plus 1 point for each card your second longest suit is longer than your shorest suit (4 for 4S - 0 clubs). Then 1 point for each "control" sof that is 2 more for the diamond ACE, plus a point for each AKQJT in partners suit (but never more than 2), so 2 more for QT of spades. Base ZAR points in support of spades is 26 points. 2) The Zar theory is that you need 26 to open and 52 to bid game, so here with your 26 opposite your parntes minimum 26 you might should bid game, but wait there is more. 3) Positive Zar fit points also apply, here the void in clubs and four spades is worth 3 additional fit points, raising the ZAR count to 29. Easy enough "value" for game. IF you count ZAR points you bid game willy nilly here. 4) However. experience (as reflected in Justin's comments above) show that voids in partners first suit are not necessarily a good thing. Zar recommends subtracting points for "inadequate support" for the trump suit, but you can (and should) also figure out a negative value for bad support for partner first suit. So the question becomes how to apply this subtraction here on this auction. If parnter is 4-2-3-4, you really don't have to worry that "clubs" is his first suit. If partner is 4-1-3-5 you do have to worry about it. So the question becomes how much negative is the void in partners first suit. If you use the 3 points per card less than three, void in clubs can count for a MINUS 9 zar fit points. This reduces the count to 20, so a simple invite with 2S is more than enough. I wouldn't use 3 points per card in a suit that wasn't trumps, as that is too much. I use a sliding scale, with one for the first short card, two for the second, and three for the third. So here, the amount off would be 6 points. This gives you 29-6 = 23 ZAR points, enough to invite game at the three level. IF partner has a king more than minimum (hence 29 himself), he will bid game. The real problem, as noted above is how to evaluate the void. If your partner will rebid 1♠ over 1♥ anytime holding four spades, being vulnerable it is probalby best to ignore that he might have real clubs and blast game. If he will rebid 1♠ only with "unbalanced" hand pattern, then it is best to invite game. In fact, in this later case, I will issue only a mild invite of bidding 2♣ --) transfer to 2♦ and then rebid 2♠ (which is weaker than immeidate 3♠ jump or 2♣ followed by 3♠). The deciding factor is not only the void in partners suit but also the questionable value of the heart Queen. Another way to look at it if you are not a ZAR fan and haven't experience to evalute this by feel is cover card concept. Assume your partner has 7/8 loser hand at most, how many cover cards do you have? Diamond ACE, SPADE Queen are two. Heart queen is 1/2 at most. So how many is the void is clubs worth? One? Then invite game is enough. 1.5? Then strong game invite. Two full cover cards? Then jump to game. In Ron's example hand. The heart queen was full cover, and the void was at least two covers. so game made easily. Change his two red kings to AK of clubs with same pattern and even 3♠ is in jeapody. So bid game, strong invite, mild invite? It all depends upon your evalation of the void in clubs... experience, Zar points, cover cards, none of them will really help because what you need to know is almost unknowable. I use the following xyz auction to show this kind of responder hand... 1m-1H-1S-2N-3C-3S as game invite with short in partners first suit (to separate from 1m-1H-1S-3S and 1m-1H-1S-2C-2S-3S... the first is good invite based upon distribution not short in partners first suit, and the second is good invite based upon hcp values. (NOTE, I use 2NT in xzy to signoff in clubs at three level, or for a variety of invite hand types to separate the difference between jump rebid of 3H or 3S and a 2C rebid followed by 3H or 3S). Anyway, any of the bids can be right on this one. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerben47 Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 Nice summary Ben. Although anything can be right I think 2♠ is too conservative on this hand. Either 2♣ or 3♠ for me, depending on what information the 2♣ will give me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 Around 7 losers in support of spades. 4S comes to mind, though things might get ugly if pard has a min and/or club wastage and they lead a trump... oops ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 I have never felt so conservative ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 I pick 3♠. It is possible that opener passes and we miss a good 4♠, though I would not rate it as very likely. There is also a danger in bidding 4♠ -- partner could expect more in high cards and bid on to the five level when four is the limit of the hand. So, I just make the value bid. Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 I have never felt so conservative :) i don't think you're too conservative at all (tho obviously many disagree)... i still think one of the red suit honors is useless and i still think the clubs are hurting... maybe fred will weigh in on this one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted February 25, 2005 Report Share Posted February 25, 2005 Unless you have specifically discussed what the differences between 3S, 2C followed by 2S and 2C followed by 3S are, the 3S bid is silly. Not only are you a level higher if partner stops, but also does this takes away partner's opportunity to make an intelligent game try, over which you'll have an easy time deciding what to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted February 25, 2005 Report Share Posted February 25, 2005 Playing xyz (at least the version I play) you can start with 2♣ and over 2♦ evaluate this to a bad limit raise or a good limit raise. The category this hand falls into is a matter of opinion. :) If you can bar a trump lead from the opponents, bidding game makes sense, however on this hand it looks like they will get the chance to lead two rounds. Voids in partner's suit are heavily overrated with only 4 trump. Not playing xyz, I just rebid 3♠ but have a secret admiration for Justin's 2♠. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winstonm Posted March 16, 2005 Report Share Posted March 16, 2005 The more I've thought about it the more I like JLall's 2S bid. The heart suit rates to be opposite something like xx and with my lack of entries the heart length doesn't rate to be of great value. I am of the opinion that 1S was not forcing, so 2S must show a little something and with my hand unless partner can move over 2S we probably don't have a game. Not conservative, J, just wise. ;) WinstonM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beatrix45 Posted March 25, 2005 Report Share Posted March 25, 2005 :) I have noticed that these type of hands - i.e. a 4-4 fit with a void in partner's other suit - do not play all that well, so a 3S underbid is my choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beatrix45 Posted March 25, 2005 Report Share Posted March 25, 2005 :) I just noticed that Justin bid only 2S. Maybe he has a point. The thing is that you do have an 8 card major suit fit and enough high cards to raise to 2S without any distribution. It's not a good 3S bid, but I think its closer to 3S than 2S - except the last time I did bid 3S with that hand, my partner bid 4S and went down two tricks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragan Posted March 25, 2005 Report Share Posted March 25, 2005 In my system I will bid 2♦(4th suit), which is on 2 level only RF. After that I will decide based on pd's answer 1) 2♥ // 3♠ //3♦ -> 4♠2) 2♠ // 3♣ -----> Pass // 3♠ Maybe not perfect, but this is our system Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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