Bid this hand with your system

[Jinksy]

Correct on the mixing threads up.

 

Much of the same logic applies though, the reverse shows 5 in the minor categorically, and all subsequent bidding is based on that. Partner knows I may only have 1 spade for the 1N rebid although that is rare, and often will find that out for definite later, and the 10 may well not be worthless if he does go back to spades. I'm not starting 1♦-1♠-2♣ as partner might well pass that with what he thinks is a misfitting heap like xxxxx, Axxx, x, J10x.

 

Comes down to agreements, I suppose. I play in bog-standard Acol that NT rebids categorically show at worst at doubleton, and we frequently bend the rules to distort our minor holdings just to give us a forcing bid.

 

Eg holding Kx KQxxxx AJx xx, I might rebid 2♦ after 1♣ 1♥ / 2♣, since 2♠ would be non-forcing and 3♠ would exaggerate the quality of the suit (and still wouldn't be forcing with some partners!).

[Cyberyeti]

Comes down to agreements, I suppose. I play in bog-standard Acol that NT rebids categorically show at worst at doubleton, and we frequently bend the rules to distort our minor holdings just to give us a forcing bid.

 

Eg holding Kx KQxxxx AJx xx, I might rebid 2♦ after 1♣ 1♥ / 2♣, since 2♠ would be non-forcing and 3♠ would exaggerate the quality of the suit (and still wouldn't be forcing with some partners!).

 

I presume you mean 2♥ not 2♠.

 

We play a fully artificial inv+ 2♦ over 1♣-1suit-2♣ as we recognise this problem, meaning we almost never have to bid 3 card suits.

 

We also without playing WJS play 1♣-1♥-2♣-2♥ as encouraging and rarely passed, partner would open 1♣, rebid 2♣ and pass 2♥ with say QJ, J, Qxxx, KQ10xxx

[FM75]

I am interested in how the bidding would go playing:

 

1. Acol 12-14 no trump with and without Crowhust

2. SA 15-17 5542 or 5533 with:

simple 2♣ check back;

new minor forcing;

2-way check back;

transfer Walsh.

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sqj987haj854d5ct8&n=sthkqt6dajt2cak65]133|200[/hv]

 

It is MP pairs btw if that influences your decision.

 

If South opens 1♣ there may or may not be an overcall of 1♦by East. I am particularly interested in how Acol players would bid this.

 

Thank you in advance

2♦ (16-23, any 4441) 2♥ (basically denying any 6 card suits

2♠ (16-19) 2N (relay, where is singleton?)

3♥ (singleton spade) 3♠ control ask

4♦ (6 controls A=2, K=1)

 

Thinking... If p has the single spade king, he can't be counting that in the 6 honors...So it could be Aces in spades, diamonds, clubs and no kings. but with 4-7 hcp in hearts, diamonds, clubs. Otherwise it is two aces and two kings, but not the ♠K and we have not agreed trump, but I know he has spade singleton and he knows, that I know.

Trumps are not agreed. 4♥ is to play, 5♥ first or second round control and slam interest.

6♥ should have good play

[Zelandakh]

FM, your auction is similar to mine except that your Opener might be a couple of points lighter. The thing that you are missing is the ♥Q. If you are using the usual Roman structure then 4♠ from you over 4♦ should ask for queens. That would not be unreasonable but I think jumping directly to 6 is clearly wrong.

[FM75]

FM, your auction is similar to mine except that your Opener might be a couple of points lighter. The thing that you are missing is the ♥Q. If you are using the usual Roman structure then 4♠ from you over 4♦ should ask for queens. That would not be unreasonable but I think jumping directly to 6 is clearly wrong.

 

I was not clear here. We do not have an asking bid in this auction after the control ask. So 4 hearts by south would be to play. I like your 4 spade idea, but with trumps unset, it is not clear how north should take this - in our current system. So I invented a 5 heart call tossing the decision of whether to bid on to opener. In this instance, he will know that south has the trump Ace, but he won't know much else, except that south chose the strain as required.

 

Thanks for your comment. Something I should discuss with partner. :)

[Zelandakh]

Read Chris Ryall's write-up of the Roman option within his 2♣ opening. Once controls are given the cheapest of a cue of the short suit and a 4/5NT call asks Opener to bid the cheapest suit in which they do not hold the queen. Bidding a new suit by Responder is now a queen ask in that suit. His solution is not quite optimal but it is close enough to provide a basis for agreement and discussion.

[SteveMoe]

Precision:

1♣ - 1♠

3N* - 4♥

5♣ - 5♦

6♥

 

3N is 16-17 1=4=4=4.

[Zelandakh]

Precision:

So Opener shows their exact hand shape within 2 points, Responder signs off and Opener goes again - sounds like a great system.

[SteveMoe]

So Opener shows their exact hand shape within 2 points, Responder signs off and Opener goes again - sounds like a great system.

C'mon Zel, Opener has enough to be safe at the 5 level when partner is 5=4+...not a real stretch at all....

[the hog]

C'mon Zel, Opener has enough to be safe at the 5 level when partner is 5=4+...not a real stretch at all....

 

I agree with Zel. This bidding is farcical. Responder has signed off and the hand that has totally described itself moves. Sorry, but this is off the planet.

[Zelandakh]

C'mon Zel, Opener has enough to be safe at the 5 level when partner is 5=4+...not a real stretch at all....

What I think would be systemically better is for Opener to show their hand as 18-19. Then Responder can decide.

[ping2827]

Playing Precision:

North open 1♣,

South bid 2♠ = 8+, 5-5 two suits;

North 2NT = asking,

South 3♦ = majors;

North 3♥ = my pick;

South 4♥, no extra.

 

North could also bid 4♥ directly showing minimum.

[Cthulhu D]

I think I'd go 1D-1S-2H, but it's hard to see bidding past 4H. I guess if south decides that he's got 'extras' after the reverse and bids 3H rather than a picture bid 4H? Given that all souths values are in the majors 4H seems likely.

 

It's a lot easier if south opens, then playing Ekrens it goes 2H-2NT-3D (showing max 5/5 majors), and North has a ton better idea what is going on, and at a lower level too.

[antonylee]

My initial auction is similar the one suggested by others

1D[unbal]-1S

2C[D+H any strength]-3H[nat inv] (one can argue 2C should show 4=5 but 1444 doesn't exist in the system anyways)

Now opener knows responder is at least 5=4 in the majors... it'll take a pretty unlucky case to be down at the 5-level (we expect one spade loser and one in the minors -- if partner doesn't have the HA he can surely cover another loser). Bidding 3S (cue) may induce responder to take a rosier view of his hand than warranted but indeed we just want to know if his hand is terrible or not.

Heh, who knows.

[chasetb]

1♦ - 2♥ (Less than INV, 5+ ♠ & 4+ ♥)

2NT (Asks) - 3♦ (5+ ♥)

4♥

[Fluffy]

oh you want artificial?

 

1♣-1♥ (precison// spades 8+)

1♠-2♥ (relay// minimum, either majors or balanced)

2♠-3♦ (relay// 5-5)

3♠-3NT (keycard in hearts// 1 keycard)

6♥-pass

[Cthulhu D]

oh you want artificial?

 

1♣-1♥ (precison// spades 8+)

1♠-2♥ (relay// minimum, either majors or balanced)

2♠-3♦ (relay// 5-5)

3♠-3NT (keycard in hearts// 1 keycard)

6♥-pass

 

Is 6H even that good? I can see the lines to 12 tricks, but you seem in danger of a bad break or even a trump lead.

[steve2005]

This hand is incredibly easy hand to get to 4♥, the trick is avoiding 6♥ but having a singleton ♠ should slow N down.

 

More interesting if playing a system which can show a strong 4441.

 

 

 

[kenrexford]

This hand is incredibly easy hand to get to 4♥, the trick is avoiding 6♥ but having a singleton ♠ should slow N down.

 

More interesting if playing a system which can show a strong 4441.

 

 

 

 

2♣ (three-suited, 10-17)

2♦ (tell me more)

2NT (15-17)

3♣ (tell me more)

3♥ (stiff spade)

 

That's a decent start.

 

A 2♣ opening as a 4-4-4-1 hand is much easier to handle than Mini-Roman, because of the cheaper 2♦ asking bid. My usual range when using this is about 10-15. However, an expanded 10-17 is easy and a good idea. In fact, I have gone 10+ before. But, expanding to just one additional range is really easy.

 

The normal 10-15 will have 2♥ (has hearts; 3♦ re-ask) or 2♠ (4144/4045/4054) as minimums, with 2NT/3♣/3♦/3♥ as one-under maximums.

 

The expanded range adds in 2NT as a maximum (3♣ re-ask), same minimum handling, with 3-bods as one-under middlish hands. The ranges are roughly 10-13, 13-15, 15-17. Overlap (and the max/min extreme) is determined by shape (void or no void). Thus, 10 with a void is enough; 17 with a void is too much.

 

With the expanded range, after a bust response (e.g., 2♥), +1 is "guess again," +2 guess again with maximum, and +3 support shortness. In the 2♥ example, 2♠ is guess again, 2NT guess again maximum, 3minor maximum support short here, and 3♥ max support short spade. If 2♠ was the bust call, 2NT guess again, 3♣ guess again maximum, 3red max support short here, and 3♠ max support short clubs.

[Fluffy]

Is 6H even that good? I can see the lines to 12 tricks, but you seem in danger of a bad break or even a trump lead.

 

One of the strengths of relay systems is that even when thye know one shape, thye have zero info towards the other and leads are difficult.

[Kungsgeten]

Our Swedish Club system:

 

1♣ (11-13 bal or most 17+) -- 1♠ (8+, 4+ spades);

2NT (nat, < 3 spades) -- 3♥;

4♥.

 

Opener may bid 4♣ as a cue instead of 4♥, but to me that should show a stronger hand (2NT is usually 17-19 or 22+).

[steve2005]

oh you want artificial?

 

1♣-1♥ (precison// spades 8+)

1♠-2♥ (relay// minimum, either majors or balanced)

2♠-3♦ (relay// 5-5)

3♠-3NT (keycard in hearts// 1 keycard)

6♥-pass

Does 6♥ have much hope on a trump lead?

[steve2005]

how the bidding would go:

[hv=pc=n&s=sqj987haj854d5ct8&n=sthkqt6dajt2cak65]133|200[/hv]

Revision (a form of Precision)

 

1♣ 16+ unbalanced 21+ balanced - 1♦ waiting

2♦ 4441 16-24 hcp - 2N GF relay asks for singleton

3♥ (1♠) - 3♠ sets ♥ as trump (though 4♥ may be best bid here)

4♣ min 16-18 hcp but no wasted ♠ honor - 4♥ to play

 

 

 

 

 

[jallerton]

I am interested in how the bidding would go playing:

 

1. Acol 12-14 no trump with and without Crowhust

2. SA 15-17 5542 or 5533 with:

simple 2♣ check back;

new minor forcing;

2-way check back;

transfer Walsh.

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sqj987haj854d5ct8&n=sthkqt6dajt2cak65]133|200[/hv]

 

It is MP pairs btw if that influences your decision.

 

If South opens 1♣ there may or may not be an overcall of 1♦by East. I am particularly interested in how Acol players would bid this.

 

Thank you in advance

 

1. Depends on the version of Acol you are playing. Some agree to open 1♥ on this shape, some open 1♦ and a smaller minority 1♣.

 

(a) 1♥-4♥ or Responder might start with a splinter if this is in range.

(b) 1m-1♠-1NT-2♣-2♥-4♥. If a 1NT opening is 12-14, a 1NT rebid should show 15-17. This is not a perfect description of the hand, but it keeps all strains in the game and less can go wrong compared with reversing into hearts (yuk) or 1♦-1♠-2♣.

 

2. Assuming weak jump shifts not in use, 1♦-1♠-2♣-2♠-2NT-3♥-4♥. I reject a 15-17 1NT opening bid which has more flaws that a 15-17 1NT rebid. 1m-1♠-2NT-look for heart fit-.....4♥ (Depending on agreements) is not unreasonable.

 

3. 1♣-1♥(Spades)-1NT-2♦-2♥....4♥ (depending on agreements). Rebidding NT at the 1-level to show (17)18-19 is more attractive than rebidding at the 2-level.

[0 luca]

Fantunes system bids like this:

1 ♣

1 ♦

1 ♥

2 ♦

2 ♠

4 ♦

5♣

...