niveau99 Posted September 6, 2014 Report Share Posted September 6, 2014 A Bergen handSouth Dealer Hand 1South North♠ A106 ♠ KQ7654♠ 9 ♥ AQ3♦ AJ964 ♦ K2 ♣ KQ2 ♣ 98 The biding goes:South North 1♦ 1♠3♠ 4♦4♥ (1) 4NT (2)5♥ 6♠Bergen’s comment:North’s 4♦ bid denies a ♣ control, the suit bypassed. So if South does not have a ♣ control either, he would sign off in 4♠. Because South did not sign off, he has to have a control. (1)The 4♥ bid shows first or second round control in hearts. (2) North now bids 4NT to reach the lay down slam. My handsHand 2 South North♠ AJ106 ♠ KQ7654♥ J10 ♥ AKQ♦ AQ964 ♦ K2 ♣ QJ2 ♣ 98 The biding goes:South North1♦ 1♠3♠ 4♦4♠ P My comment:North’s 4♦ bid denies a ♣ control, the suit bypassed. South does not have a ♣ control either so signs off in 4♠.----------------------------------------Hand 3South North♠ A1063 ♠ KQ7654♥ 94 ♥ AK3♦ AJ105 ♦ K2 ♣ AK2 ♣ 98 The biding goes:South North1♦ 1♠3♠ 4♦??? 1.A bid of 4♠ by South would deny a ♣ control!2. Compare hand 3 with hand 13. Any comment?4. I have a solution, but I want to see yours first. Tks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinksy Posted September 6, 2014 Report Share Posted September 6, 2014 3. Any comment? This seems to be the only legal hand? If S can bid 4♥ as Last Train, that solves his problems. If not, he cues 5♣, probably showing both the AK, or maybe just confirming the ace, depending on style, but drawing attention the the H problem either way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhantomSac Posted September 6, 2014 Report Share Posted September 6, 2014 4H shows a club control not necessarily a heart control ldo. Welcome to the 2000s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fromageGB Posted September 6, 2014 Report Share Posted September 6, 2014 Cue bids never cope with all hands without penalty (being lead-indicative or whatever). Certainly the north hand on the opener's bidding deserves a cue bid, and one option is to play that 3NT is a one-under denial cue bid showing slam interest without club control. After opener's 4♣ showing club control, you could ace ask. 3NT here is not a non-serious 3NT because opener has limited his hand with a passable 3♠ bid. In a different sequence where he had given spade support in an unlimited bidding sequence, 3NT would be non-serious, so now playing one-under cues, a first cue bid of 4♥ shows no club control. Where the bidding has been limited, and you want to make an invitation to bid slam but do not want to unilaterally ace ask, the one-under method allows you the option of bidding 3NT to deny the club control, then over 4♣, which shows the control you are missing, you can bid 4♠. This cannot be a sign-off when partner has bid the missing control (you would have just bid 4♠ rather than 3NT) so it is a cooperative slam try, showing all controls but needing extras from partner. If he does not have them, he can pass. Alternative methods also work on this hand. A simple denial cue bid method works (I think) in pretty well all cases. On this hand it goes 4♣ 4♥ (opener has the responder-denied clubs and the opener-bypassed diamonds but does not have hearts). However, this method does not have the cooperative slam try capability and perhaps gives opponents too many opportunities for lead-directing doubles. Adopt the ambiguous 4♥ cue bid without a control at your peril. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted September 6, 2014 Report Share Posted September 6, 2014 Yes, much prefer 3nt rather than 4d. 3nt is slam going hand, often hoping pard can cue clubs but need not be 100% Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fromageGB Posted September 6, 2014 Report Share Posted September 6, 2014 4H shows a club control not necessarily a heart control ldo. Welcome to the 2000s.ldo - means what? Not in the BBO abbreviations, and I don't think I have come across it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fromageGB Posted September 6, 2014 Report Share Posted September 6, 2014 Yes, much prefer 3nt rather than 4d. 3nt is slam going hand, often hoping pard can cue clubs but need not be 100%This version of 3NT is different, possibly a "serious 3NT"? It makes the bidding more complicated when the missing control in the bidder's hand is not clubs. Imagine it is a diamond control he is short of, and bids 3NT. He is stuck when opener with both minor controls bids 4♣. If he bids 4♥ to show that control, opener can see all controls but he is not the one who wants to ace ask, so perhaps he bids by giving his response to an assumed ace ask? Could this be then taken by responder as being a sort of exclusion ask? When the bidder of 3NT is missing only the heart control and opener bids 4♦ what does he do? Bidding a one-under-the-one-wanted cue bid is simple in comparison, as is a denial cue bid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhantomSac Posted September 6, 2014 Report Share Posted September 6, 2014 ldo - means what? Not in the BBO abbreviations, and I don't think I have come across it.http://lmgtfy.com/?q=ldo+acronym Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fromageGB Posted September 6, 2014 Report Share Posted September 6, 2014 Thanks. I have added www.internetslang.com to my bookmarks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niveau99 Posted September 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 7, 2014 A Bergen handSouth Dealer Hand 1South North♠ A106 ♠ KQ7654♠ 9 ♥ AQ3♦ AJ964 ♦ K2 ♣ KQ2 ♣ 98 The biding goes:South North 1♦ 1♠3♠ 4♦4♥ (1) 4NT (2)5♥ 6♠Bergen's comment:North's 4♦ bid denies a ♣ control, the suit bypassed. So if South does not have a ♣ control either, he would sign off in 4♠. Because South did not sign off, he has to have a control. (1)The 4♥ bid shows first or second round control in hearts. (2) North now bids 4NT to reach the lay down slam. My handsHand 2 South North♠ AJ106 ♠ KQ7654♥ J10 ♥ AKQ♦ AQ964 ♦ K2 ♣ QJ2 ♣ 98 The biding goes:South North1♦ 1♠3♠ 4♦4♠ P My comment:North's 4♦ bid denies a ♣ control, the suit bypassed. South does not have a ♣ control either so signs off in 4♠.----------------------------------------Hand 3South North♠ A1063 ♠ KQ7654♥ 94 ♥ AK3♦ AJ105 ♦ K2 ♣ AK2 ♣ 98 The biding goes:South North1♦ 1♠3♠ 4♦??? 1.A bid of 4♠ by South would deny a ♣ control!2. Compare hand 3 with hand 13. Any comment?4. I have a solution, but I want to see yours first. Tks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niveau99 Posted September 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 7, 2014 The biding goes: South North 1♦ 1♠ 3♠ 4♦ 4♥ confirming the denied Club stopper but denying a Heart stopper. I play Non-serious 3NT so the reason for the 4♦ bid by North. I don't cuebid past game. Tks for the replies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damitall Posted September 7, 2014 Report Share Posted September 7, 2014 Why did the hand was not opened 1NT? Full balanced 16 HCP! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damitall Posted September 7, 2014 Report Share Posted September 7, 2014 Why did the hand was not opened 1NT? Full balanced 16 HCP! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damitall Posted September 7, 2014 Report Share Posted September 7, 2014 My partner opened 1NT .A 2 Club relay and opener 3D showing maximum hand with 4D and a major.3H relay 3S spades.4C asking doubleton 4H heart doubleton.4NT simple Blackwood 5club 3 Aces,5NT relay for club King,6D saying yes.7 Spades.All Pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niveau99 Posted September 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 7, 2014 My partner opened 1NT .A 2 Club relay and opener 3D showing maximum hand with 4D and a major.3H relay 3S spades.4C asking doubleton 4H heart doubleton.4NT simple Blackwood 5club 3 Aces,5NT relay for club King,6D saying yes.7 Spades.All Pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niveau99 Posted September 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 7, 2014 Actually I made up that hand just to show that the bid of 4H is similar to the 4th suit, asking for H control, not showing a control, contrary to Marty Bergen's intention. You can just replace a small Diamond by the Queen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damitall Posted September 8, 2014 Report Share Posted September 8, 2014 It is my polite and humble suggestion that you play 3NT over 3S as slam aspiration,keeping all other bids except the 4S ,which is sign off,as natural bids.It makes the life much simpler for cue bidding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msjennifer Posted September 8, 2014 Report Share Posted September 8, 2014 I know the relays developed by Damitall,who does not play Stayman over 1NT.Even on 2NT openings she prefers to play Baron as then one does not miss a slam in a 44 minor suit fit.She also has laid down two prinipales 1) opener never makes a splinter bid and(2)opener bids the fourth suit to guarantee a control in that suit and not to deny it.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msjennifer Posted September 8, 2014 Report Share Posted September 8, 2014 I know the relays developed by Damitall,who does not play Stayman over 1NT.Even on 2NT openings she prefers to play Baron as then one does not miss a slam in a 44 minor suit fit.She also has laid down two prinipales 1) opener never makes a splinter bid and(2)opener bids the fourth suit to guarantee a control in that suit and not to deny it.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fromageGB Posted September 8, 2014 Report Share Posted September 8, 2014 The biding goes: South North 1♦ 1♠ 3♠ 4♦4♥ confirming the denied Club stopper but denying a Heart stopper.If 4♥ denies the heart control, what does opener do with a heart control? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niveau99 Posted September 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 8, 2014 If 4♥ denies the heart control, what does opener do with a heart control? With a heart control then all 3 outside suits are controlled. Opener can use RKC or respond to RKC as if it had been used by partner (1) (1) Since we don't cuebid past game, a bid of 5 hearts by opener would show 2 key cards w/o the trump queen. The reason opener "responds" rather than ask is that declarer knows how many trumps he has and can judge to bid 6 or 7. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niveau99 Posted September 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 8, 2014 It is my polite and humble suggestion that you play 3NT over 3S as slam aspiration,keeping all other bids except the 4S ,which is sign off,as natural bids.It makes the life much simpler for cue bidding. I use Non-Serious 3NT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jogs Posted September 11, 2014 Report Share Posted September 11, 2014 My handsHand 2 South North♠ AJ106 ♠ KQ7654♥ J10 ♥ AKQ♦ AQ964 ♦ K2 ♣ QJ2 ♣ 98 The biding goes:South North1♦ 1♠3♠ 4♦4♠ P My comment:North’s 4♦ bid denies a ♣ control, the suit bypassed. South does not have a ♣ control either so signs off in 4♠.---------------------------------------- This site doesn't support tabs. South North ♠ AJ106 ♠ KQ7654 ♥ J10 ♥ AKQ ♦ AQ964 ♦ K2 ♣ QJ2 ♣ 98 It does seem to support 'code'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 When South has a 3153 followed by a 4253, we should probably call the TD before getting into Hand 3. To the OP, if you want responses I recommend finding a format that is readable in a reasonable time. A good rule of thumb would be one hand per thread and to use the hand diagram when possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jogs Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 The forum prefers this format. I threw out the ♣2.I also changed the North ♠6 to ♠8.There were two ♠6. This format does not allow duplicate cards. [hv=pc=n&s=sajt6hjtdaq964cqj&n=skq8754hakqdk2c98]133|200[/hv] It is easier to count the cards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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