How do we avoid this?

[Trick13]

[hv=pc=n&w=sq5haq7dt9caj8542&e=sj3hjt43daj85cq63&d=s&v=e&b=3&a=2s(weak 6-cards)3cp3s(Do you have a stop?)]266|200|[/hv]

 

MP, red vs white.

 

Alas there was no happy ending, even after the 7♠ lead ducked around to the Q♠ in 3NT(!).

 

East needs to pass 3♣. What should he be thinking besides "If partner has a stop we could make 3NT".

 

Making contracts were 2♣ and (3♠).

[gszes]

preemptive bids (including weak 2 bids) can cause disruption by causing both underbidding

as well as overbidding. The problem with this hand was the 3c overcall which was arguably

an ace short of what's needed for a 3 level vul overcall. East made a slightly aggressive

3s bid (with all those slow values if partner cannot bid 3n 4 or even 5c would probably

be out of reach.

[whereagles]

Everything's fine. East might have passed 3♣, but no warm-blooded creature would do it.

 

Bidding is not an exact science. But hey, 100 down is fine vs 140 in 3♠, no?

[Trick13]

It's vul, so we are at least -200.

 

Actually we were a bit unlucky as every other pair probably faced a multi 2♦ opener instead. Then West can pass and bid a delayed 3♣.

[whereagles]

oh sorry, I saw it the other way around

[Cyberyeti]

It's vul, so we are at least -200.

 

Actually we were a bit unlucky as every other pair probably faced a multi 2♦ opener instead. Then West can pass and bid a delayed 3♣.

 

Except that a lot of people play that as clubs and the other major.

 

If you pass 3♣, partner will have Qxx, A9, 109, AKxxxx and he can be a bit better than that.

 

No blame.

[wank]

west doesn't have a 3 club bid

[P_Marlowe]

3C normal, 3S normal, 3NT normal, ... -2 happens.

You were unlucky, that North did not raise to 3S.

They gave you room, unfortunately, the room did not

help you, next bord ... hopefully against the same

opponents.

[broze]

I would never be bidding 3C here. Terrible suit. Flat. And rubbish holding in opp'so suit.

[billw55]

Everything's fine.

No blame.

3NT normal

I am somewhat surprised by all this. Partner asks for a stopper in opponents known 6-card suit, we are looking at Qx and go for it?

[1eyedjack]

I am somewhat surprised by all this. Partner asks for a stopper in opponents known 6-card suit, we are looking at Qx and go for it?

 

I think that I would. Qx may be enough, but if it is not, then you are probably destined to go minus whatever happens. So you might as well hope for the best.

 

But then I would not have bid 3C.

[neilkaz]

I like to compete aggressively vs preempts and more so than some strong players who post here in these forums. But the 3♣ bid really is a bit light here and noting that LHO is unpassed, could really get clobbered. The suit is not all that good, and the hand is 6322 and the Qx in ♠ is a terrible holding and note that's 2 HCP PD doesn't have. I'd pass and also note that I can expect PD to try for 3NT with his hand by bidding 3♠.

 

So after overcalling with at best a dead minimum, west then assumes Qx is a stopper and bids 3NT! Guess who gets 100% of the blame here.

 

If the 7♠ lead was ducked, rather than running 6♠ tricks to start the torture, perhaps E-W would do well to discuss their lead agreements.

 

.. neilkaz ..

 

EDIT: As 1eyedjack just posted, you are destined to go minus anyhow if the Qx isn't a stop. But this should have been a bigger minus.

 

EDIT: I forgot to mention that a PD went for 1700 a couple years ago with me when she overcalled 3C with almost the same hand except that her suit was headed by KJ and her LHO had a better C suit than she did.

[billw55]

If the 7♠ lead was ducked, rather than running 6♠ tricks to start the torture, perhaps E-W would do well to discuss their lead agreements.

Perhaps south held ♠AKxxxx and out, and gave west credit for ♠Qxx for his bid. Now ducking may be the only way to keep the spades in play. It seems like a reasonable trap to fall into - partner only needs one entry.

 

Maybe bluffing is a part of bridge once in a while. Has anyone tried something like this on purpose?

[neilkaz]

Perhaps south held ♠AKxxxx and out, and gave west credit for ♠Qxx for his bid. Now ducking may be the only way to keep the spades in play. It seems like a reasonable trap to fall into - partner only needs one entry.

 

Sure with AKxxxx and out he has to duck the 7 if he reads it as from a doubleton so PD can return his last ♠ when he gets in. My point is that if the pair has an agreement with what to lead with three small on this auction where support was not given then the defense could be very clear.

 

As a defense disciple of Kantar's defense stuff (but with UDCA) I lead low from 3 small in PD's suit when I didn't support. Now PD can probably read it correctly as he sees Jx in dummy. If the lead is stiff, he can't duck or he takes no tricks. If the lead is from 3, well then 6 tricks cash as long as the opener leader unblocks if it is possible needed.

[Trick13]

South couldn't believe that West didn't have a stop, so ducked - the 7♠ (from ♠762) looking like a doubleton.

Also North passed when he had a clear 3♠ raise.

 

We were -400 in 3NT with everything off-side.

[SteveMoe]

If one overcalls with the West hand (I wouldn't) then you'll have more character building opportunities like these. West over valued the ♠Q twice in this auction. Pass. Sound actions a the 3-level over their preempts pay out in the long run. Besides, partner knows what to do with a hand good enough to move toward game anyway so no need to be impatient with an imperfect hand.

 

FWIW, If they had preempted 2♥ and you hels a ♠ dominant hand with a similar pattern, a 2♠ overcall would be wholly appropriate. Here 3♣ is too much.

If you wouldn't overcall without the ♠Q, then you don't have an action with the ♠Qx unless you know partner holds values or shortness in that suit.

[PhantomSac]

It's not like the queen of spades is worthless, if partner bids 3N I bet the queen of spades is a huge card. When partner has nothing in spades it is worthless but that's often not the case (esp if we can make 3N).

[lamford]

The problem with this hand was the 3c overcall which was arguably an ace short of what's needed for a 3 level vul overcall.

I agree that West does not have a 3C bid, but it is hardly an ace short. ♠Qx ♥AQx ♦xx ♣AQJxxx looks a normal 3C overcall, and that is just a queen better.

[Nabooba]

You can avoid this by not bidding 3C on this rubbish. That is a big overbid.

[akwoo]

Personally, I think this is a perfectly good 3♣ overcall at MPs.

 

However, I think it's clear from this thread it doesn't matter what I think; it matters what your partner and you agree on.

 

One choice is that you agree West has a normal 3♣ overcall, and East passes with that hand opposite. You miss some games, but you compete better on partscodes.

 

Another choice is that you agree West should not overcall 3♣ on the West hand, and East should bid over the 3♣ overcall. Your game bidding is better, but sometimes you sell out to 2♠ or 3♠ when you're better off playing 3♣ or 4♣.

[PhantomSac]

Personally, I think this is a perfectly good 3♣ overcall at MPs.

 

However, I think it's clear from this thread it doesn't matter what I think; it matters what your partner and you agree on.

 

One choice is that you agree West has a normal 3♣ overcall, and East passes with that hand opposite. You miss some games, but you compete better on partscodes.

 

Another choice is that you agree West should not overcall 3♣ on the West hand, and East should bid over the 3♣ overcall. Your game bidding is better, but sometimes you sell out to 2♠ or 3♠ when you're better off playing 3♣ or 4♣.

 

Why are those the only 2 options? Personally I would overcall 3C and I would bid with the east hand. Sometimes you both have minimums with Qx opp Jx (3 points that are worth zero) and it doesn't work out. You don't have a lot of room when they preempt and you are going to have to guess. Is it really such a disaster to play 4C anyways? Sometimes I'll go down 1, and they obviously make at least 2 spades.

 

And by the way, overcalling at imps is a lot better than at MP vul. Like on this hand no one would care if they played 4C instead of defended 2S, but if you go for 200 in 3C (or 4C) that is a complete disaster at MP. And if you get to a light 3N, that's good at MP but even better at imps vul.

 

Also this is a funny thread to read when there is another one going on right now where almost everyone else agreed with overcalling 3C on A x Axxx AKJxxxx lol.

[whereagles]

You can avoid this by not bidding 3C on this rubbish. That is a big overbid.

 

overbid? maybe .. big overbid? never. Add the ♣10 and like 99% of experts would do it.

[Nabooba]

overbid? maybe .. big overbid? never. Add the ♣10 and like 99% of experts would do it.

 

And your evidence for this comment Mr Whereagles is.....?

[Vampyr]

Actually we were a bit unlucky as every other pair probably faced a multi 2♦ opener instead. Then West can pass and bid a delayed 3♣.

 

If he gets the chance. Weak-only multis are very popular.

[whereagles]

And your evidence for this comment Mr Whereagles is.....?

 

You have answered the question yourself.