Negative Free Bids & Fit jumps

[mgoetze]

For those of you who are going to tell me I shouldn't play so much system, thanks.

On the contrary, the problem in this situation is obviously that you don't play enough system. :P

 

I recall an interview with Eric Rodwell wherein he opined that NFBs are good over limited openings as in Precision, but not good over wide openings as in Standard American. Makes sense to me. But I take the opportunity to be able to bid them once in a while anyway by playing transfers in certain situations.

 

And really, doesn't it strike you as incredibly inefficient for both double and 1♠ to show spades here? ;)

[jillybean]

Thanks for the replies. I'm coming back to this thread just now, very busy time with things other than bridge at the moment.

 

I've not really made any progress and need to find some time to sit down with my partner and go through these replies and work through our system.

I don't like to start with a double here because as others have noted, with a strong one suited hand the auction often gets ugly.

 

 

Michael; for us, double in this auction denies spades, 1♠ shows 4+ Which raises another question, if we are playing NFB we can't use double to

show a GF hand and to show a minimum response w/o 4 spades.

[helene_t]

Michael; for us, double in this auction denies spades, 1♠ shows 4+ Which raises another question, if we are playing NFB we can't use double to

show a GF hand and to show a minimum response w/o 4 spades.

I think it's great that you play double this way when you play NFB. This means that strong hands with length in the other minor can double and then bid the suit: this will logically show a hand too strong for a NFB.

 

You do have another problem, though. If you first bid spades and then the other minor, how much strength are you showing, and which of the two suits is guaranteed to be a 5-card suit?

[mgoetze]

Michael; for us, double in this auction denies spades, 1♠ shows 4+ Which raises another question, if we are playing NFB we can't use double to show a GF hand and to show a minimum response w/o 4 spades.

Why not? Opener assumes the minimum hand at first, if responder bids again it turns out he had a GF instead.

[jillybean]

Why not? Opener assumes the minimum hand at first, if responder bids again it turns out he had a GF instead.

 

Doesn't it get murky if opener has a good hand (18+) ?

[jillybean]

 

You do have another problem, though. If you first bid spades and then the other minor, how much strength are you showing, and which of the two suits is guaranteed to be a 5-card suit?

 

I think that would be the start of an xyz auction for us.

[mike777]

Thanks for the replies. I'm coming back to this thread just now, very busy time with things other than bridge at the moment.

 

I've not really made any progress and need to find some time to sit down with my partner and go through these replies and work through our system.

I don't like to start with a double here because as others have noted, with a strong one suited hand the auction often gets ugly.

 

 

Michael; for us, double in this auction denies spades, 1♠ shows 4+ Which raises another question, if we are playing NFB we can't use double to

show a GF hand and to show a minimum response w/o 4 spades.

 

I play NFB and indeed there may be times where if you start with x with a gf hand the opp will preempt you.

 

As with all things there are negatives with playing a gadget.

I play NFB but understand there are negatives. Hopefully you will find these are rare/

 

Yes you start with a neg x with a gf hand and long suit. Yes if the opp keep bidding the auction will get ugly. fair point. I find it rare but a fair point against playing NFB

[mgoetze]

Doesn't it get murky if opener has a good hand (18+) ?

Only because of your kickback fascination, others would just bid 4NT as Blackwood and opener would understand. ;)

[Zelandakh]

If I understand it your double effectively shows either a GF hand with clubs or a balanced hand without a stopper. Since many play their 1♠ response to show this I think you should be ok with double! The big hand is not really a problem - if you are forcing to game opposite what is potentially the weak hand type and Responder has a GF hand, they should know what to do!

 

But if you have worries about this then my suggestion is to talk with Ben (inquiry) about it. He has played transfers here (including 1♠ = clubs or bal without stop) for a long time and can assuredly fill you in on the potential pitfalls. Given that you have the weaker hands with clubs removed via the NFB as well as having an extra step you are better off on these auctions so what works for him should work well for you + a bit on top.

[jallerton]

The main downside of two-way calls comes in competition: if next hands raises the overcall, it's hard for Opener to cater for both the standard negative double and the strong hands with a long suit. This is why there's much more of a case for playing negative free bids in unbid majors than in unbid minors: after say 1♥-(2♦), if you have to double on an FG hand with 5 or 6 spades, it's not so bad as partner will expect you to hold 4 spades anyway; but if you double on an FG hand with 2 spades and 6 clubs as well, partner will not know whether he should be competing in spades or not.

[Zelandakh]

The main downside of two-way calls comes in competition: if next hands raises the overcall, it's hard for Opener to cater for both the standard negative double and the strong hands with a long suit.

But this is not a problem for JB's structure. You can see this similarly to Swedish Club only better - the double is effectively either balanced or GF with clubs. A weak balanced hand passes and a GF hand does something - easy. The only problem comes from stronger balanced hands without a stop but these would also be a potential issue without the NFBs.