slam try after partner's weak two

[aleatory]

partner opens 2♥ vulnerable in first seat, passed to hero with:

♠QJxx ♥KQxx ♦void ♣AKQJx

 

This partner has the heart ace always in this spot.

new suits are forcing, jump in a new suit I have no clue.

we play 2NT as feature asking looking for a side ace or king.

cue bidding style is to bid 1st and 2nd round controls (A,K,singleton,void), but I don't know how to set trumps and initiate cuebidding here.

 

What is your method for finding 2nd round control in spades?

 

If you bid 2NT feature asking, partner answers 3H.

[whereagles]

Bid a straight 6. Even if LHO has ♠AK, pard may ruff it 1st/2nd round.

[Cyberyeti]

Bid a straight 6. Even if LHO has ♠AK, pard may ruff it 1st/2nd round.

 

I bid a straight 6 also, mainly because they almost certainly have to find the spade lead to beat it if it can be beaten, and it's just as likely the man on lead has ♦AK as ♠ AK.

[Zelandakh]

Many pairs have a shortage ask available over a weak 2 - that would be one option. Some pairs have a mechanism for making a strong raise. Within your methods the only way would be to make a 4♦ splinter and then continue 5♣ over 4♥. That should alert partner to the requirement for a spade control. Of course it will also alert the opps, which is essentially what the 2 posters before me are pointing out.

[NickRW]

With due respect and quite a lot of agreement with the previous answers, they don't really answer the OP's question.

 

I've always operated with the meta agreement that, unless otherwise discussed, if a bid in the same suit one level down (from the actual bid) would be forcing, then the next level up is a splinter. Given that then 4♦ is a splinter raise of hearts. And, again assuming p signs of in 4♥ then following that with a cue of 5♣ surely gets the message across that p needs a ♠ control for 6.

[whereagles]

true.. but the point is this is not a hand to be scientific.. it's the sort of hand where a flyer usually works best and it's a very simple and straightforward bid :)

[kenrexford]

A couple of ideas here might be worth consideration here.

 

First, the easiest one. I really like 4♣ after 2NT as a shortness ask. In the actual auction, after Opener's 3♥, you could using that technique bid 4♣. If partner bids 4♠, great! The problem is that he might bid 5♣ to show club shortness. Thus, that tool only works if the 5-level seems safe.

 

Second, a restructuring of the feature ask might help. I do a similar thing with Ogust. Consider, for example, if you simply switched the club feature bid and the no feature bid:

 

2♥-P-2NT-P-?

 

3♠ = spade feature

 

3♥ = club feature

 

3♦ = diamond feature

 

3♣ = no feature

 

The downside to this approach is a loss of fast arrival. However, after 3♣, there would be a convenient 3♦ call to ask for more information. This would not obviously help, as the expectation I would have is that 3♦ should probably be a general strength ask in that situation, with 3♥ declining (no features, general garbage). I would also expect, BTW, 3NT by Opener (2M-P-2NT-P-3♣-P-3♦-P-3NT) to show a solid (or semi-solid if 3NT directly shows solid) suit. However, you COULD decide to have Opener show shortness on the way just in case (e.g., bids 3♠, 4♣, or 4♦ with shortness if accepting).

 

The downside to that automatic disclosure is automatic disclosure when it might not matter. An alternative middle-of-the-road approach would be to bid three of the other major with shortness, requiring an ask if partner cares.

 

In summary:

 

2M-2NT-3♦/3OM = feature here

 

2M-2NT-3NT = solid suit

 

2M-2NT-3M = feature in clubs

 

2M-2NT-3♣ = no feature, not solid

 

2M-2NT-3♣-3♦ = strength ask

 

After strength ask, SIGN OFF, 3NT with AKJxxx/AQJxxx, 3OM with shortness

 

After 2♥-2NT, 3♣-3♦, 3♠OM-3NT asks for stiff (4min = here, 4♥=♠ stiff)

 

After 2♠-2NT, 3♣-3♦, 3♥OM-3♠ asks for stiff (4min=here, 3NT=♥ stiff)

 

This might not help this hand, unless you extended this one more step. If partner shows no feature (3♣) and then declines (3M), you could play that the next step up asks for a stiff anyway. Thus, 2M-2NT, 3♣-3♦, 3M-(3M+1) = shortness???

 

FWIW, you might also add in the 4♣ shortness ask for the situation of partner showing a feature but you still looking for shortness.

 

 

 

 

 

[Zelandakh]

Ken, is it not easier to play it along the lines of: 3♣ = min + feature (3♦ asks); 3♦ = max + minor suit feature (3♥ asks); 3♥ = min + no feature; 3♠ = max + ♠ feature; 3NT = max + no feature? I seem to remember Andy has a particularly ingenious scheme here too, and Frances plays transfers, so no shortage of clever options about if one is willing to learn a lot of sequences.

[kenrexford]

Ken, is it not easier to play it along the lines of: 3♣ = min + feature (3♦ asks); 3♦ = max + minor suit feature (3♥ asks); 3♥ = min + no feature; 3♠ = max + ♠ feature; 3NT = max + no feature? I seem to remember Andy has a particularly ingenious scheme here too, and Frances plays transfers, so no shortage of clever options about if one is willing to learn a lot of sequences.

Of course there's a lot of restructuring options, and I mentioned an Ogust based restructuring in passing. I mentioned the one above as a possible structure tied to a feature concept as one example only.

[gszes]

I hate doing writing this in int/adv but if you have no tools available to

discover if p has a spade control or not you should choose either a straight

4h or 7h (yep 7) all p needs to make 7 a really good bid (based on your assesment

cho always has the heart ace under these conditions) is for p to have 2+ !D and a

lucky lead. You give the opps no information and it is up to them to set the

contract. Unless I had a huge lead I feel bidding the grand here at IMPS is

a big gainer in the long run.

 

The potential gain is so large that it might even be a sound idea to completely

avoid looking for controls and just bid 7 outright. The gain is NOT so large however

when p has a spade control so in the long run you will be better off looking for a

spade control when you have the tools.

[kenrexford]

I hate doing writing this in int/adv but if you have no tools available to

discover if p has a spade control or not you should choose either a straight

4h or 7h (yep 7) all p needs to make 7 a really good bid (based on your assesment

cho always has the heart ace under these conditions) is for p to have 2+ !D and a

lucky lead. You give the opps no information and it is up to them to set the

contract. Unless I had a huge lead I feel bidding the grand here at IMPS is

a big gainer in the long run.

 

The potential gain is so large that it might even be a sound idea to completely

avoid looking for controls and just bid 7 outright. The gain is NOT so large however

when p has a spade control so in the long run you will be better off looking for a

spade control when you have the tools.

Sure. Catch partner with 3613 and the spade King.

[mikeh]

I bid slam immediately.

 

I am assuming that we lack the science necessary to find out whether slam is cold.

 

In some partnerships, I play that 2N is a form of ogust, and that were I to bid 2N, then a 3♠ bid by me, if available, is an asking bid, and not a cuebid. That agreement would be great here, so long as partner responded no higher than 3♥. I'd have 4♠ as the asking bid otherwise, and this will usually be ok, but we are at risk now of playing 5♥ when he holds xxx in spades, and they can cash two winners and ruff the third.

 

However, asking bids are hardly standard even among experts, and I wouldn't expect an A/I pair to be using them.

 

Some players have the ability to ask for shortness. Indeed, a common method in my neck of the woods is 2N asks for shortness and 3♣ asks for a side A or K.

 

If we had that available, we could ask for one of the holdings we need, but we'd be left guessing about the other.

 

Meanwhile, back at the blasting camp:

 

There is a real possibility that they cannot beat it even double dummy. I am uncomfortable assigning a percentage to that but I would guess on the order of 25% or more.

 

When they can beat it, they have to guess the lead. When rho has one Ace, he'll often lead it, but that makes a diamond lead as likely as a spade.

 

If he has both, he will usually lead the shorter suit (at least, that is my basic rule on these hands), and that means spades more often than diamonds. However, as against that we have hands such as Axxx x KQxxx xxx, on which he may well lead a diamond anyway...note he can't have the reverse holding because we hold the spade Q.

 

I would guess that we are going to make an 'unmakeable' contract, on the lead, about 37.5% of the time (1/2 of the 75% time they can beat us).

 

On those guessestimates, slam rates to make about 62.5 % of the time. Given that we can't ever find out reliably, we should just blast. So long as these odds exceed 50% making, we blast.

 

Note that I don't suggest blasting grand. Part of the reason small is a good gamble is because it will sometimes be cold on any lead. That is not at all true in grand. Partner is unlikely to hold first round control, and thus a spade lead will always beat us.

 

It is true that the standard lead against grand is a trump, but not on this sort of auction. This sort of auction screams that dummy has a long, solid side suit, at least one useful void, and good trump. Opening leader will/should always lead an Ace (maybe not from, say, Axxxxxx or so) and, holding both Aces, definitely the shorter.

 

Add to this that the gain of making grand instead of small is less than the loss of failing in grand when the opps make small, and the percentages don't makes sense.

 

Btw, I wouldn't blast if I had science. With science I reach it every time it is cold, and only miss it when it can fail, and blasting on those hands is no better than 50%, so I wouldn't do it.

[Trinidad]

I bid a straight 6 also, mainly because they almost certainly have to find the spade lead to beat it if it can be beaten, and it's just as likely the man on lead has ♦AK as ♠ AK.

You could bid 5♠ (Exclusion) first and then bid 6♥ to induce a trump lead. Even simple Blackwood would reduce the probability that the opponents lead an ace, or away from a king. The main problem is that the opponents won't believe you when opener shows 2 aces/keys and you bid only 6. On the other hand, if partner shows 2 keys after Exclusion 5♠ you can bid a confident grand. :)

 

Rik

[msjennifer]

Will partner show a spade feature on 2NT relay ? If so,then his bid of 3H denies it.Play quietly in 4Hearts.!

[Zelandakh]

Will partner show a spade feature on 2NT relay ? If so,then his bid of 3H denies it.Play quietly in 4Hearts.!

Why did we not think of that? Genius! I am sure partner with ♠x ♥AJTxxx ♦xx ♣xxxx will congratulate you on your impeccable logic.

[whereagles]

well Zel, you must agree jennifer has a point.. after all, if pard does have a spade feature 6 is cold :)

[Trump Echo]

Why did we not think of that? Genius! I am sure partner with ♠x ♥AJTxxx ♦xx ♣xxxx will congratulate you on your impeccable logic.

 

I agree with msjennifer. While the above hand will produce a slam, the chance of having such a layout is so small, it's not worth the risk of missing a laydown game.

 

Bid 2 NT.

 

If partner answers 3 ♦, the odds of a Spade stop is even smaller than before, plus strength is diluted. Bid 3 Hearts. Partner will not pass. He'll either cue Spades (unlikely) or raise to game where you'll pass.

 

If partner answers 3 Hearts, raise to game.

 

If partner answers 3 Spades, bid slam in Hearts.

[Cyberyeti]

I agree with msjennifer. While the above hand will produce a slam, the chance of having such a layout is so small, it's not worth the risk of missing a laydown game.

 

Bid 2 NT.

 

If partner answers 3 ♦, the odds of a Spade stop is even smaller than before, plus strength is diluted. Bid 3 Hearts. Partner will not pass. He'll either cue Spades (unlikely) or raise to game where you'll pass.

 

If partner answers 3 Hearts, raise to game.

 

If partner answers 3 Spades, bid slam in Hearts.

 

At pairs, frequently the operation may well be a success but the patient still dies as the information leak means you score 650 with everybody else scoring 680/710/1430/1460, partner shows a diamond feature and this puts the opening leader off his diamond lead for example.

[steve2005]

Might as well bid 7♥ this may be a 5 or 7 hand on the lead so go for the gusto. On non-spade lead have 13 tricks.

[PhilKing]

The time has come for the dreaded psychic exclusion RKCB in spades ...

[mikeh]

The time has come for the dreaded psychic exclusion RKCB in spades ...

I knew you were going to say that...truly, I did....I must be......psychic!

[cherdano]

Of course, playing against forum posters PK would bid exclusion RKCB in diamonds.

[PhilKing]

I knew you were going to say that...truly, I did....I must be......psychic!

 

Guess I'd better not try it against you ...

[whereagles]

Might as well bid 7♥ this may be a 5 or 7 hand on the lead so go for the gusto. On non-spade lead have 13 tricks.

 

That's a bit more risky. Against 7 LHO is likely to start with the spade ace if he has it. It might not be so against 6. Besides, opener can have a singleton spade, making 6 cold and 7 a lead gamble.

[jdgalt]

partner opens 2♥ vulnerable in first seat, passed to hero with:

♠QJxx ♥KQxx ♦void ♣AKQJx

 

This partner has the heart ace always in this spot.

new suits are forcing, jump in a new suit I have no clue.

we play 2NT as feature asking looking for a side ace or king.

cue bidding style is to bid 1st and 2nd round controls (A,K,singleton,void), but I don't know how to set trumps and initiate cuebidding here.

 

What is your method for finding 2nd round control in spades?

 

If you bid 2NT feature asking, partner answers 3H.

 

That seems straightforward enough to me. 3H denies the ace or king of spades. I bid 4H, finis.