Bidding the 6-4 Monster

[biggerclub]

You hold: x, Txx, KQ9xx, AJxx . . . although this is mostly irrelevant. Mostly.

 

Opponents pass throughout. Partner opens 1♠. You call 1NT. Partner emerges with 3♥. 3NT or 4♥ (or something else)?

 

As it turns out, Partner is 6-4 with the advertised strength and the auction proceeded, 1♠-1NT-3♥-3NT-4♠-5♥- All PASS . . . which was 1 level too high.

 

A few questions here. Is 4♥ better than 3NT on the second bid?

 

Should Responder just PASS 4♠?

 

This seems to create a problem for me approximately once every 3-4 sessions so there has to be some (black letter) solution/rule to handle these big 6-4 hands when Responder starts 1NT.

 

HELP!

[mike777]

I don't get the question..

 

you had an easy 1d opener don't pass.

 

if you pass and pard opens 1s then bid 2d...

 

 

if pard opens 1s and you bid 1nt what is the issue?

 

bid your hand and then pass

 

I don't get the question.

[helene_t]

I would have passed 4♠. Alternatively, if you want to make a slam try, maybe 5♦ is better than 5♥. But making a slam try now after first having signed off in 3NT is not consistent.

 

Maybe opener should have passed the 3NT bid. Having six spades is not enough reason to take out 3NT. But I would need to see his hand :)

[Zelandakh]

there has to be some (black letter) solution/rule to handle these big 6-4 hands when Responder starts 1NT.

There is - it is called a forcing 1♣ opening. Of course you replace one set of issues with another but if the opps stay silent you are usually better placed. My guess is that you have posted the wrong hand here and that the problem is that Opener bid their values twice, a common theme for players looking at a big hand. But as Helene writes, we would need to see the hand.

[Cyberyeti]

I don't get the question..

 

you had an easy 1d opener don't pass.

 

if you pass and pard opens 1s then bid 2d...

 

 

if pard opens 1s and you bid 1nt what is the issue?

 

bid your hand and then pass

 

I don't get the question.

 

A 5431 10 count may be an easy opening bid for you (and me) but not for most of the world.

 

The gadget that helps most here I think (I don't play it) is to play 2♣ artificial over 1♠-1N (Gazzilli) so 2♣ is either natural or a big hand.

[Zelandakh]

The gadget that helps most here I think (I don't play it) is to play 2♣ artificial over 1♠-1N (Gazzilli) so 2♣ is either natural or a big hand.

As discussed on the other thread, transfers are an alternative solution (eg 1♠ - 1NT; 2♦ - 2♥; 3♠ - 3NT).

[biggerclub]

A 5431 10 count may be an easy opening bid for you (and me) but not for most of the world.

 

The gadget that helps most here I think (I don't play it) is to play 2♣ artificial over 1♠-1N (Gazzilli) so 2♣ is either natural or a big hand.

 

Partner dealt and opened.

 

My question is really a bit more general and thank you for answering it by referring to Gazzilli. When opener holds a game forcing 6-4 hand, it seems like too much space is taken up by the 1x - 1N - 3y - anything - 4x sequence.

 

I get the basic concept of the 2 way 2♣ bid, but I don't really see how Opener clairifies that 2♣ was minimum and natural.

[biggerclub]

As discussed on the other thread, transfers are an alternative solution (eg 1♠ - 1NT; 2♦ - 2♥; 3♠ - 3NT).

 

Can you point me to the other thread, please? Thanks in advance.

[kenrexford]

FWIW, another relevant structure involves a GF 2NT rebid. After the forcing 1NT, 3-bids are 5-5 but intermediate (5-5 with 5 losers). 2NT is artificial and game forcing.

 

That solution does not get us all that far, though, because the normal thing is to relay 3♣, followed by 3♥, which could be 5-5 or 6-4. It does have a small advantage of immediately breaking the relay with 3-card support, such that 3♠ after 3♥ is bid on a doubleton.

 

2♣ as some sort of forcing or semi-forcing relay can help, as well.

 

Strangely, though, one solution I like is a bit complicated to explain but workable in practice. There is a theme of major two-suiters being problematic, also if on the light side, because you cannot tell easily if you have 5-5 or 6-4, or just 5-4. A lot of stress can be taken off by enabling a 2♦ rebid. That can be enabled with a strange 2♦ opening.

 

 

 

 

 

[biggerclub]

I would have passed 4♠. Alternatively, if you want to make a slam try, maybe 5♦ is better than 5♥. But making a slam try now after first having signed off in 3NT is not consistent.

 

Maybe opener should have passed the 3NT bid. Having six spades is not enough reason to take out 3NT. But I would need to see his hand :)

 

Opener held: ♠AQJ832; ♥AKQJ; ♦543; ♣ --. 3NT does not do any better than the -50 we got in 5♥. 4♠s makes (by pitching a ♦ on the A♣). 4♥ makes because the ♦ ruff shortens the long hand.

 

I feel like I should try to cooperate with partner who is probably showing 10 cards in the majors with his jump to 3♥ and a raise to 4♥ would be best. I definitely would have done that with Qxx rather than Txx.

 

Here are all 4 hands:

 

 

[hv=pc=n&s=s5ht63dkq987caj94&w=st6h842dajt6cqt83&n=saqj832hakqjd543c&e=sk974h975d2ck7652&d=n&v=e&b=9&a=1sp1np3hp3np4sp5hppp]399|300[/hv]

[Zelandakh]

Can you point me to the other thread, please? Thanks in advance.

It was mentioned in passing here but there are older threads discussing the idea more fully. There is also more than one version of playing transfers here. One easy option is: 2♣ = ♦ or bal; 2♦ = 4+♥; 2♥ = 6+♠; 2♠ = 4+♣, min; 2NT = 4+♣ inv; 3♣ = nat GF, although you could probably do better if you wanted to add a little more complexity.

[SteveMoe]

Suggest you Google "Meckstroth Adjunct"

[bdegrande]

I also play Gazzilli, which would help on this particular hand. It would start 1♠ - 1NT - 2♣ (either natural or strong) - 2♦ (8+ artificial) - 2♥ (strong with both majors), leaving a lot more room.

 

On your actual auction, I would have passed 4S. Partner should have six great spades and might even have seven. He also might be jump shifting into a weak suit to express his overall hand strength.

[msjennifer]

What was wrong was the INT bid.What is wrong with 2D? You certainly can bid 2 NT if partner bids 2H and 2NT bid limits your hand also as well as telling partner that you do not have even a two card spade support.I feel your partner would have bid just 2H as your 2D is forcing upto 2NT.On your 2NT he would have signed off on the given hand in 4S.

[MrAce]

You hold: x, Txx, KQ9xx, AJxx . . . although this is mostly irrelevant. Mostly.

 

Opponents pass throughout. Partner opens 1♠. You call 1NT. Partner emerges with 3♥. 3NT or 4♥ (or something else)?

 

As it turns out, Partner is 6-4 with the advertised strength and the auction proceeded, 1♠-1NT-3♥-3NT-4♠-5♥- All PASS . . . which was 1 level too high.

 

A few questions here. Is 4♥ better than 3NT on the second bid?

 

Should Responder just PASS 4♠?

 

This seems to create a problem for me approximately once every 3-4 sessions so there has to be some (black letter) solution/rule to handle these big 6-4 hands when Responder starts 1NT.

 

HELP!

 

3 NT is correct bid. You should pass 4 spade. You did not promise any spade with your bidding so far and he is saying that he can play 4 spade regardless.

If he had 5-5 or 6-5 and wanted you to choose between majors he would bid 4 he, not 4 spade.

[fromageGB]

If you play Gazzilli (or some artificial bid that is normally used for strong openers) then you need an agreed meaning for 1♠ then 3♥, such as 15/16 55xx which nicely separates that from the 2♣ sequences, but in the absence of artificial methods I think the 3NT bid was wrong. 4♥ is a better bid with any 3 cards, when you have a shortage outside. Your quick controls in the minors are just what partner wants.

 

To the follow-up question, I think the normal version of gazzilli has opener using the 1♠ 1NT, 2♣ 2♦, 2♠ sequence as the way to show a natural non-strong-hand club suit. This assumes your 1NT may include a 5 card major, as it gets impossible to show everything otherwise. At MPs I prefer a 1M open always, and can't show a weak 4 card minor. But there again, playing normal methods, does 1♠ 1NT 2♣ show a 4 card suit? I think not.

[rmnka447]

I don't see any problem with the auction through the 4 ♠ bid.

 

Partner's 3 ♥ bid doesn't guarantee more than 4 ♥s. After the 4 ♠ bid, you know that partner has at least 6 ♠s and 4 ♥s. If you knew that partner had 5 ♥s instead of 4, you might take a preference to ♥. However, you can't know if that is the case. So, you have to make the decision based on playing in one of two 7 card fits. It's usually right to play in the one with the longest long suit(6-1 better than 5-2 better than 4-3).

 

So after the 4 ♠ bid, pass would normally be best.

[biggerclub]

For those who suggested Gazzilli or Meckstroth Adjunct:

 

I am also not really seeing how this helps with hands that want to show two suits and indicate that the higher ranking suit is longer than previously shown. Our hand, for example.

 

With the Meckstroth Adjunct, the auction would go (opponent's passing throughout): 1♠-1NT-2NT-3♣(denying support for Opener's MAJ)-3♥(second suit, may have 6 (or even 7) in first suit)-3NT/4♥-4♠ . . . and again, I need to make a good decision (which I didn't do under the old system and have no more reason to do so now) on my 3rd or 4th turn.

 

With Gazzilli, I dunno -- seems like I get a chance to show my 3♥s at the 3 level and if partner wants to show 6♠s he likewise can get it in at the 3 level but this may require some extra gadgets. 1♠-1NT-2♣(relay)-2♦relay accepted-2NT (showing ♥s -- I guess, at least in the system I am looking at) - 3♣(asking for more info about distribution) - now I am not sure which takes priority 3♦ (showing the fragment) or 3♠ (showing the 6th ♠). My likely call over either is 3NT and if partner bids 4♠ over that, I can pass (even though I should pass anyway on the original auction).

[mysterian]

If you play a convention called Parker, you have a way to show minimum or maximum 6-4s when the suits are spades and hearts.

Opener starts with One Spade, responder bids One Notrump (forcing), opener rebids 2H (with any hand that's less strong than a jump shift (18+). With the example hand, responder would rebid 2NT. Now the convention takes over. If opener rebids 3S he is 6-4 with a minimum. If he rebids 3H, he is 5-5 with a minimum. Both are non-forcing. If he rebids 3C, forcing 3D, he is about to bid 3S (forcing) with 6-4 or 3H (forcing) with 5-5. These sequences are forcing to game. So whenever opener is 6-4 he almost always rebids 2H over responder's One Notrump.

[dorisga44]

For those who suggested Gazzilli or Meckstroth Adjunct:

 

I am also not really seeing how this helps with hands that want to show two suits and indicate that the higher ranking suit is longer than previously shown. Our hand, for example.

 

With the Meckstroth Adjunct, the auction would go (opponent's passing throughout): 1♠-1NT-2NT-3♣(denying support for Opener's MAJ)-3♥(second suit, may have 6 (or even 7) in first suit)-3NT/4♥-4♠ . . . and again, I need to make a good decision (which I didn't do under the old system and have no more reason to do so now) on my 3rd or 4th turn.

 

With Gazzilli, I dunno -- seems like I get a chance to show my 3♥s at the 3 level and if partner wants to show 6♠s he likewise can get it in at the 3 level but this may require some extra gadgets. 1♠-1NT-2♣(relay)-2♦relay accepted-2NT (showing ♥s -- I guess, at least in the system I am looking at) - 3♣(asking for more info about distribution) - now I am not sure which takes priority 3♦ (showing the fragment) or 3♠ (showing the 6th ♠). My likely call over either is 3NT and if partner bids 4♠ over that, I can pass (even though I should pass anyway on the original auction).

 

I play Gazzilli, the way you would handle 2 major-suited hands (16+pts) would be like this:

 

If you had 5=4 bid 1♠ - 1NT - 2♣* - 2♦* - 2♥

If you had 5=5 bid 1♠ - 1NT - 2♣* - 2♦* - 3♥

If you had 6=4 bid 1♠ - 1NT - 2NT (shows 4 other) - P relays with 3♣ and you just bid the 4 card suit (3♠ if you have 4 Clubs)

 

NB. It is important to note that the 2♦ bid is not automatic, it shows 9-12pts. If you had less than that, you would have to bid something else --> bid new natural suit or show false preference to opener's major.

 

Like people have mentioned before, if you have 5-5 intermediate you can jump to 3♥ after 1NT.

If you are less than 15pts, you just bid suits normally.

 

Hope that helps.

[whereagles]

1♠ 1NT

3♥ 3NT

4♠ pass

 

seems normal. Too much of a misfit to press on.