Matchpoint game, who pushed too hard?

[bdegrande]

South takes more of the blame. That hand has a lot of negatives. It is aceless, it is 4-3-3-3 and with a known at least 9 card fit, the ♠Q may not be a working value. North's had is not too bad/ With two aces, a king, and two doubletons, it is a lot better than some minimums. It may be a close decision to bid game, but it at least reasonable. South's hand isn't close to a 2NT bid.

[P_Marlowe]

Both.

 

South is 4333 and submin on HCP, and North has a min opener.

 

Why is this even asked?

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

In the system officially played in Germany, you add 2 pts to the S hand for the nine-card fit because it is often worth a trick.

<snip>

 

One of the reason being, you dont care a lot, who has the Queen of Trumps, unfortunately, we have it.

It may not be part of the official documents, but if you are in the upgrade department, you should also

know, when to downgrade: 4333 is a downgrading factor (-1), and the jack is certainly anything than full

value. Single raises have a range from 6-10 in the official German system (may depend on the version of

the document, one is looking at), so after doing the math the limit raise is overbidding.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[yunling]

At least 90% for south. 4333 shape is no good and KQTx in partner's 5 card suit is a big minus. I rate the hand as a so-so 8 count.

For north hand, I know I'm in the minority but I think it worth 13. Jxxxx is no longer a minus when you have a 9-card fit, aces are good, so is DT.

Don't know your opening style, but north is probably ok if you open a lot of 11s.

[m1cha]

@P_Marlowe:

 

I agree on most points, particularly on the 4333 distribution. I changed my mind about the ♥J though. There's a good probability of opener having Qx(xx) or Kx(xx) and E having the other ♥ honors in which case ♥J is likely to make a trick, so I think the J is worth its single point.

 

Anyway, of course S is stretching the hand by bidding 2NT. I just meant I find it 'acceptable' here even if you play the limit raise as 11 - 12 because with (good) 10 pts at least we're close. While for accepting a game invitation I'd want to see 14 pts and I'd rate the N hand closer to 12 than to 13.

[MickyB]

If you don't have a mixed raise available, I like 2NT here, just so long as partner expects it - there's still room for a try.

[runewell]

South's bid is waaaay worse. As others have said, only a flat 9 count is nothing remotely close to a limit raise.

 

North's action is OK since he has a several prime controls (aces and kings tends to be worth more). I think it's a coin flip between 3S and 4S after the X, but a simple pass after 2S.

[Bbradley62]

Both.

 

South is 4333 and submin on HCP, and North has a min opener.

 

Why is this even asked?

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

Obviously, because North and South are disagreeing about it and wanted impartial opinions.

[Vampyr]

I think it's a coin flip between 3S and 4S

 

Wouldn't that mean it's just right for a game try?

[Winstonm]

Sorry, but I have seen no system that uses a 4333 8-count(only point count slaves count Jxx) as anything other than a simple raise - maybe constructive raise, but certainly not a limit raise.

[ArtK78]

If you don't have a mixed raise available, I like 2NT here, just so long as partner expects it - there's still room for a try.

IMO, one should not make a mixed raise on a 4333 hand.

[aguahombre]

I know what our definitions of "constructive raise" vs "mixed raise" are, and I won't convince anyone successfully. So that doesn't matter.

 

However, if this were a true ATB, I would give no blame to North. South invited game without an invite; North should never have been given the opportunity to make a bad acceptance.

[operator]

Both overbid

 

I am not a big fan of mixed raises at the best of times, but the S hand is a much better mixed than limit raise...indeed, it isn't even close to a limit imo.

 

It would be useful to play methods over the double. For me, I play transfers starting with redouble, which shows a balanced, notrump type of hand, 8+ hcp. So 2♥ would show a sound raise to 2♠, which is what this is worth (2♠ would show a weak raise).

 

Having said that, the bad call by S should merely have got the partnership to the 3-level, which seems safe enough.

 

N committed a basic error in hand evaluation.

 

Having 5 controls is a good thing, and often justifies the taking of a rosy view, but it is very important to look to where the cards are. High cards in short suits are not worth as much as are high cards in long suits, where the high cards can help establish the low cards as length winners. Here, the club AK are not worth as much as they would be were they in long suits.

 

 

In addition, even giving the club cards more weight than I think they deserve, we have the same flat 12 count we opened. Yes, it was a clear opening bid (imo) but that doesn't make it a hand with extras, and the limit raise asks us to bid game if we have some extras. We don't.

 

Finally, the Losing Trick Count can be a reasonably good metric in close situations. I don't, actually, consider this to be close, but if you did, then count the losers. A LTC of 7 suggests a minimum hand. One shouldn't accept the limit with that sort of LTC. Were the LTC to be 6 (such as Jxxxx xx AQxx AK) then one ought to accept the raise.

 

Both players misbid, but the partnership should have survived S's call, since N had no semblance of acceptance

 

As for the bonus question, about Meckwell, I suggest you take a look at the hands on which they (and other top pairs) bid 'light high card' games. They do NOT bid games just because they hold a combined 22 or 23 hcp. They do stretch, a lot, for 3N, but when they bid light major games, they do it on sound principles, based (usually, it seems to me) on shape and degrees of fit.

 

Full support. Great appreciation of hi cards true value. Mike Laurence fan? :)

[Zelandakh]

Mike Laurence fan? :)

Mike is a Canadian international and Bermuda Bowl player. Most of us who have posted here for a long time are MikeH fans, probably more so than MikeL ones.

[MrAce]

Mike is a Canadian international and Bermuda Bowl player. Most of us who have posted here for a long time are MikeH fans, probably more so than MikeL ones.

 

You beat me to it. I would take our Mike over his, even if the last name was misspelled and it was actually Lawrence. :-P

[SteveMoe]

Both share equal blame.

South for inviting and an 8 Pt (deduct for 4333) 9-loser - this is constructive at best.

North for accepting an invitation on a minimum. My experience with 5422 shape is LTC underestimates loser count by 1. Don't forget to deduct for the ♣AK doubleton.