wank Posted August 18, 2014 Report Share Posted August 18, 2014 [hv=d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1sp3c(natural%20invitational)p3hp3sp4c]133|100[/hv] Should this be forcing? I passed, thinking partner was probing for NT, and found out we had no diamond stop so parked the bus in part-score. I'm thinking partner should have something like kxxxx akx xx QJx. The sequence seems akin to overcalling, getting supported, cueing the opps' suit to check for a stop and then signing off. Partner actually had a 5422 21 count and we scored up with -2140. This was actually in danger of being an amusing board as they had a PRC 'guess' in the trump suit to make 7 or -2 (you can safety play for 6), so we were close to scoring +9 for missing game. I think if partner wants to go slamming in he should just raise to 4c, instead of tarting about with hearts. All the other good players I asked though said partner's sequence was forcing. I'm unrepentant. Comments? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted August 18, 2014 Report Share Posted August 18, 2014 It probably should be nonforcing but I wouldn't dare passing it without agreement, raising 4♣ to 5♣ in a constructive auction is usually no disaster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted August 18, 2014 Report Share Posted August 18, 2014 A quick question for you - what do you and your partner think about the auction 1♣ - 1♠; 3♣ - 3♥; 3♠ - 4♣? The issue of "fuzzy" follow-ups to IJSs is one that comes up regularly on BBF and one of the things I have learned through these threads is that comparing the auctions with the equivalent one in which Responder had opened and rebid 3 of their suit is often a good way of resolving matters without having to create special agreements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilKing Posted August 18, 2014 Report Share Posted August 18, 2014 Maybe you asked the wrong people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_clown Posted August 18, 2014 Report Share Posted August 18, 2014 I think it should be forcing, with your example hand I would just bid 3NT. It could be a slam try or some 5512 or similar and looking for the best game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Marlowe Posted August 18, 2014 Report Share Posted August 18, 2014 I guess there is a case to play it as NF, but ... I dont like stopping in 4m. With kind regardsMarlowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWO4BRIDGE Posted August 18, 2014 Report Share Posted August 18, 2014 Deleted...I misread the 1S open as 1C open ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted August 18, 2014 Report Share Posted August 18, 2014 I think strain before slam is a good general rule here, so 3♥ was a 3NT probe, and 3♠ denied a diamond stopper and modest (doubleton?) spade support. 4♣ would be non-forcing. I would be in the same boat as you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrAce Posted August 18, 2014 Report Share Posted August 18, 2014 I am probably one of the very long time users of invitational 3m bids over a major (about 15 years now) I play this NF. A pair who is using this should never give up on their ability to seek 3 NT without fearing that they can never stop before game. And by experience I can confidently say that you will hold a lot of hands which are decent for 3 NT opposite the correct hand but have no interest in playing 5m. This is a very frequent auction if you play 3 m invitational. After all you have an opener opposite an invitational hand with good 6 card suit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jallerton Posted August 18, 2014 Report Share Posted August 18, 2014 [hv=d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1sp3c(natural%20invitational)p3hp3sp4c]133|100[/hv] Should this be forcing? I passed, thinking partner was probing for NT, and found out we had no diamond stop so parked the bus in part-score. I'm thinking partner should have something like kxxxx akx xx QJx. The sequence seems akin to overcalling, getting supported, cueing the opps' suit to check for a stop and then signing off. Partner actually had a 5422 21 count and we scored up with -2140. This was actually in danger of being an amusing board as they had a PRC 'guess' in the trump suit to make 7 or -2 (you can safety play for 6), so we were close to scoring +9 for missing game. I think if partner wants to go slamming in he should just raise to 4c, instead of tarting about with hearts. All the other good players I asked though said partner's sequence was forcing. I'm unrepentant. Comments? This is a matter of partnership agreement. Without previous discussion, I think that both partners need to be aware of the possibility of potentially ambiguous sequences. It might have been more practical for you to bid 4♣ rather than 3♠, but your partner's bidding was particularly dangerous: he should realise that there is a possibility that 4♣ might seem NF to you, so it's silly to risk it when his hand is close to a slam force. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrAce Posted August 19, 2014 Report Share Posted August 19, 2014 I agree with Jallerton. If we leave aside what's best theoretically, without agreement, passing 4 Cl probably was not the best strategy. You may lose +130 and end up minus, true, however the consequences may be much more costly if pd is not in same page with us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fromageGB Posted August 19, 2014 Report Share Posted August 19, 2014 I preface this comment by stating I have never played IJS, but if someone asked me to, I would say that 3♥ was a natural rebid, and I would expect something like a 5422 shape. When I give preference to spades rather than NT, he takes me for a 2236 shape without good diamonds, and on his 5413 shape he correctly puts me back to 4♣. This has to be to play. Non-forcing, therefore, in the absence of agreements. If opener has good hand, he can always bid game or slam or ace ask, as I have described my hand pretty well, or if he wants to force more out of me and still keep a slam option - have I got 3 card heart support? - he can bid 4♦. 4♣ must be to play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fromageGB Posted August 19, 2014 Report Share Posted August 19, 2014 ...they had a PRC 'guess'...What's that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jallerton Posted August 27, 2014 Report Share Posted August 27, 2014 What's that? PRC must stand for Principle of Restricted Choice. 'Guess' was presumably in inverted commas because the odds favour the winning play over the losing one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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