Show Me.

[Winstonm]

It is recurring situation in the USA. Come election day, the voters don't actually back up the things they say they want done. I don't know why or what to do about it.

 

This problem exists in Ferguson. The heavily black majority population say they want racial awareness and parity. They could easily elect a black mayor and black city council. But they don't, for some reason. Why not? Our political system offers elections as the way to fix such problems but the people don't seem to use this tool effectively.

 

The problem is that most liberals live in concentrated urban areas so their voting block amounts to overkill while conservative tend to live in more rural areas - it then becomes easier to gerrymander the districts so that conservatives are elected a disproportionate amount of the time when compared to the total votes.

 

From Cleveland.com

 

Even though most Ohio voters backed Democrats in this year’s presidential and U.S. Senate elections, new congressional maps designed to protect GOP incumbents kept three quarters of the state’s U.S. House of Representatives seats in Republican hands.

[billw55]

The problem is that most liberals live in concentrated urban areas so their voting block amounts to overkill while conservative tend to live in more rural areas - it then becomes easier to gerrymander the districts so that conservatives are elected a disproportionate amount of the time when compared to the total votes.

Yes, gerrymandering is a problem, and can explain some results. It probably does not explain why in Ferguson, which is 2/3 black, only one of six council members is black, and the mayor is also white.

 

And then, sometimes urban concentration is not a disadvantage. In the 2010 Illinois governor election, Bill Brady won more counties than Pat Quinn: 98-4. However, one of Quinn's four was Cook county (that's Chicago for those unaware), and the winner was based on straight vote totals. So he retained the office. Fair or not?

[kenberg]

Yes, gerrymandering is a problem, and can explain some results. It probably does not explain why in Ferguson, which is 2/3 black, only one of six council members is black, and the mayor is also white.

 

And then, sometimes urban concentration is not a disadvantage. In the 2010 Illinois governor election, Bill Brady won more counties than Pat Quinn: 98-4. However, one of Quinn's four was Cook county (that's Chicago for those unaware), and the winner was based on straight vote totals. So he retained the office. Fair or not?

 

I guess it is a bit weird. Wyoming and California each are entitled to two Senators, which violates my sense of fair representation. But with two seats per state, elected statewide, this fends off gerrymandering. So what's right? I live in a Congressional district that has been gerrymandered by Democrats so I am represented by Chris Van Hollen. I'm fine with Mr. Van Hollen but the map of my district, see http://en.wikipedia....sional_district, is an embarrassment. It looks like something from a book on fractals.

 

 

As to Ferguson and places like it, we need to emphasize practicality. I have read a little, but only a little, about what it has been like there. The school Brown went to had lost its state accreditation. So they sent the kids elsewhere. The kids did not much fit in but some were succeeding. Then they had some sort of state takeover of the original school, and they brought the kids back there. Regardless of their wishes, no choice offered. Talk about being jerked around. Of course this is going to lead to trouble, who on earth would expect otherwise. Kids, especially those in need, have a good sense of who is trying to help them and who isn't.

[mike777]

A new article by Flynn and Winning show how children. hundreds and hundreds of children are raped over and over again and the police arrested and convicted something close to zero of the eager paying customers.

 

The race card caused the police to turn away over years and years.

 

The lawmaker Denis MacShane who represented the area says there was a culture of not wanting to rock the boat.

[helene_t]

But with two seats per state, elected statewide, this fends off gerrymandering. So what's right?

Proportional representation is one option.

 

Or you could elect a single (or two maybe) senators per state and give them votes proportional to the population size of their state.

 

Or adopt Richard's idea: Letting a computer program do the gerrymandering, making the districts as compact as possible which is an objetive criterion leaving no room for partisan criteria.

[barmar]

Where are these gun ranges with automatic weapons?

The one where the 9-year-old girl accidentally killed her instructor this week is in Arizona.

[billw55]

The one where the 9-year-old girl accidentally killed her instructor this week is in Arizona.

In my opinion that "instructor" killed himself. I feel bad for the girl, she will suffer over it.

[kenberg]

Reading

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/uzi-death-at-hands-of-9-year-old-reopens-debate-about-children-and-guns/2014/08/28/8b138da4-2ee3-11e4-9b98-848790384093_story.html?wpisrc=nl_politics&wpmm=1

 

and then

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/why-i-let-my-children-walk-to-the-corner-store--and-why-other-parents-should-too/2014/08/25/f28d7dac-2c6b-11e4-9b98-848790384093_story.html

 

can give one a sense of unreality.

 

If I understand it correctly, 9 year old kids can do target practice with Uzis but they can't play in the park by themselves. I am having difficulty following the logic of this. Perhaps they should take the Uzi with them when they go to the park, then it would be ok?

 

Childhood was simpler when I was a child.

[billw55]

Proportional representation is one option.

 

Or you could elect a single (or two maybe) senators per state and give them votes proportional to the population size of their state.

 

Or adopt Richard's idea: Letting a computer program do the gerrymandering, making the districts as compact as possible which is an objetive criterion leaving no room for partisan criteria.

The whole point of the Senate is that it is not proportional to population. That's what the House is for.

 

Drawing House boundaries by computer would be fun, just to hear the incumbents howl. Heh.

 

 

[Trinidad]

If I understand it correctly, 9 year old kids can do target practice with Uzis but they can't play in the park by themselves. I am having difficulty following the logic of this. Perhaps they should take the Uzi with them when they go to the park, then it would be ok?

Obviously. A cell phone is not sufficient protection for a 9 year old, but an Uzi would have done the job.

 

(Scary to think that there are people in the USA who actually think like that.)

 

Rik

[cherdano]

Yes, gerrymandering is a problem, and can explain some results. It probably does not explain why in Ferguson, which is 2/3 black, only one of six council members is black, and the mayor is also white.

 

And then, sometimes urban concentration is not a disadvantage. In the 2010 Illinois governor election, Bill Brady won more counties than Pat Quinn: 98-4. However, one of Quinn's four was Cook county (that's Chicago for those unaware), and the winner was based on straight vote totals. So he retained the office. Fair or not?

I guess billw does not believe in democracy.

[billw55]

I guess billw does not believe in democracy.

What a strange thing to say.

[Winstonm]

Yes, gerrymandering is a problem, and can explain some results. It probably does not explain why in Ferguson, which is 2/3 black, only one of six council members is black, and the mayor is also white.

 

And then, sometimes urban concentration is not a disadvantage. In the 2010 Illinois governor election, Bill Brady won more counties than Pat Quinn: 98-4. However, one of Quinn's four was Cook county (that's Chicago for those unaware), and the winner was based on straight vote totals. So he retained the office. Fair or not?

 

My first reaction is to say that popular vote should prevail - but I am open to a convincing argument to the contrary.

[Winstonm]

I guess billw does not believe in democracy.

 

Democracy is basically mob rule. The U.S. is a representative republic, with certain inalienable minority rights protected from the religious crazies. :P

[billw55]

Democracy is basically mob rule. The U.S. is a representative republic, with certain inalienable minority rights protected from the religious crazies. :P

And those same rights also protect the religious crazies. Seems fair.

[hrothgar]

Or adopt Richard's idea: Letting a computer program do the gerrymandering, making the districts as compact as possible which is an objetive criterion leaving no room for partisan criteria.

 

FWIW, my thoughts on districting have progressed a bit further over the past few years...

If you're going to have districts, draw them by computer. However, I'm starting to believe that the entire idea of a district is flawed.

 

I think that I'd prefer a mechanism by which each "party" nominated a slate of electees and a rank ordering.

 

Let's assume that you're the "Purple" party, putting together a slate for the 2014 election

New York has 27 congressional seats, so you'll need to nominate a total of 27 candidates.

 

For each 2.7% of the vote that is cast for the Purple Party, one of your electors is put into office.

(Electors are put into office based on the rank ordering that the party decides)

 

Candidates who want to go it alone and run without associating themselves with a party can, of course, do so...

 

I think that this, combined with an instant run off system, is even better...

[kenberg]

Obviously. A cell phone is not sufficient protection for a 9 year old, but an Uzi would have done the job.

 

(Scary to think that there are people in the USA who actually think like that.)

 

Rik

 

“Had he been behind her or on her strong side, probably nobody would have gotten hurt,” said Philip Van Cleave, a shooting instructor and president of the Virginia Citizens Defense League, a pro-gun rights group.

 

Yes, I see his point. If you give an Uzi to a 9 year old, you must remember to stand behind her instead of beside her. Regardless of just how crazy Americans are or are not, this guy is a true outlier.

[Trinidad]

Regardless of just how crazy Americans are or are not, this guy is a true outlier.

Just for the record: I think Americans are just as crazy as Europeans. They are just crazy in different respects.

 

As an example, I think the American love for guns and the distrust of the government are relics from the 18th century.

At the same time, I find the European idea that everybody should be taken care of by the government completely mad. I would limit that to people who are not able to take care of themselves (temporarily or permanently).

 

Rik

[helene_t]

Let's assume that you're the "Purple" party, putting together a slate for the 2014 election

New York has 27 congressional seats, so you'll need to nominate a total of 27 candidates.

 

For each 2.7% 1/27 of the vote that is cast for the Purple Party, one of your electors is put into office.

FYP. Also known as proportional representation

[Winstonm]

The United Nations has now taken a stance:

 

GENEVA, Aug 29 (Reuters) - The U.N. racism watchdog urged the United States on Friday to halt the excessive use of force by police after the fatal shooting of an unarmed black teenager by a white policeman touched off riots in Ferguson, Missouri.

 

Minorities, particularly African Americans, are victims of disparities, the U.N. Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination (CERD) said after examining the U.S. record.

 

"Racial and ethnic discrimination remains a serious and persistent problem in all areas of life from de facto school segregation, access to health care and housing," Noureddine Amir, CERD committee vice chairman, told a news briefing.

[cherdano]

What a strange thing to say.

 

In my view, deciding elections between two candidates in any other way than by popular votes is less democratic than deciding by popular vote.

 

In fact, I find this a truly obvious concept, and that it needs a lot of brain-washing/being used to other systems for someone to even find another opinion reasonable. Noone thinking about this question from first principles would come to any other conclusion.

 

Yes, I have read many arguments in favour of the electoral college. I'd say anyone who would propose them in a vacuum when you start a country from scratch would be laughed out of the room.

[hrothgar]

Yes, I see his point. If you give an Uzi to a 9 year old, you must remember to stand behind her instead of beside her. Regardless of just how crazy Americans are or are not, this guy is a true outlier.

 

This was obviously a tragedy. With this said and done, I'm no gun aficionado and even I know that uzi's drift up and to the left.

Standing to the left of an 8 year old firing a fully automatic uzi chambered for large rounds is near suicidal.

[kenberg]

I know nothing about uzis, and am content in my ignorance. However, if a person is attempting to hit a target directly in front of her, and if it is dangerous to be standing directly to the side of her, then that person really should not be firing that weapon. I find it very difficult to believe that standing directly to the left is dangerous, even suicidal, and standing elsewhere would be perfectly safe. If the experience of firing this thing is so unstable that it might fire 90 degrees to the left of the intended direction. it is not safe no matter where you are. In particular it is not safe for the child.

 

I repeat I do not know anything about uzis. But an argument that the mistake was standing to the child's left, rather than that the mistake was giving the child the uzi, seems out of whack to me. Sort of like partner opening on 8 points and five spades to the queen and then explaining to me the errors I made during the subsequent auction.

 

I juxtaposed the article about the uzi with an opinion piece by Petula Dvorak on the supervision of children. Anyone who is remotely my age, pretty much no matter where they grew up, will tell you that (middle class) kids today are far more supervised and watched over than we were. I in fact think the freedom that I had was very valuable, as Ms. Dvorak suggests. But really no one, and I mean no one, would have put such a weapon into my hands or the hands of any of my friends when we were 9.

 

I confess that it feels wrong to be discussing this. As you say, it's a tragedy. It's not my tragedy. It's too damn bad. But some things seem to be really stupid.

[hrothgar]

I know nothing about uzis, and am content in my ignorance. However, if a person is attempting to hit a target directly in front of her, and if it is dangerous to be standing directly to the side of her, then that person really should not be firing that weapon. I find it very difficult to believe that standing directly to the left is dangerous, even suicidal, and standing elsewhere would be perfectly safe. If the experience of firing this thing is so unstable that it might fire 90 degrees to the left of the intended direction. it is not safe no matter where you are. In particular it is not safe for the child.

 

This all goes back to Newton's third law. For any action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

 

When you fire a weapon, the bullet gets thrown out in one direction. However, you're going to have a recoil in the opposite direction.

In general, the line of the barrel is going to be above your hands. As a result, when you fire you get what's known as "muzzle rise".

 

IN a similar vein, uzi's eject and vent to the right (they throw shells and vent gas out of the right hand side of the weapon).

This causes the weapons to drift to the left when they are fired.

 

I've never fired an uzi. I have fired a fully automatic twelve gauge.

I'm a large guy. I was specifically warned about drift and rise.

I was being careful and started by firing short bursts.

I found the shotguns tendency to drift un-nerving.

 

I don't find it at all surprising that a nine year could lose control when firing an uzi

(And if she did lose control, I know where I wouldn't want to be standing)

[blackshoe]

It was two stupid mistakes, and the combination of the two was fatal. As you say, Ken, a tragedy.