Show Me.

[Winstonm]

The sickness of overaggressive use of force by the police in the US is best shown by the shooting of Kajieme Powell.

 

http://www.vox.com/2014/8/20/6051377/video-st-louis-police-shooting-Kajieme-Powell

http://www.vox.com/2014/8/20/6051431/did-the-st-louis-police-have-to-shoot-kajieme-powell

 

The telling part for me is that a police union spokesperson commented that this video footage is "exculpatory", when any normal person would think of their behaviour as somewhere between overaggressive, unprofessional, needlessly escalating, and completely insane.

 

Of course, white privilege makes it easier to ignore.

http://www.rogerebert.com/mzs/what-white-privilege-really-means-an-anecdote

 

I have no knowledge firsthand but I have read that to police a knife is a greater threat than a gun. The police in the video certainly seemed to act quickly but it is hard to know how much threat they felt. That said, I point all the way back to Ronald Reagan's ideology that the mentally ill should not be government's responsibility - funding dried up for mental health facilities, a liberal SC ruled the mentally ill had equal rights, and people with severe mental illnesses ended up on the streets, where they were arrested only to be released back to the streets.

 

I, too, think this whole system sucks - and mental health sucks the big one.

[cherdano]

I have no knowledge firsthand but I have read that to police a knife is a greater threat than a gun. The police in the video certainly seemed to act quickly but it is hard to know how much threat they felt.

 

I think it's besides the point how they felt. Their insane aggression put themselves into a position where they had to make this decision. The person was still 2 m away from them when they started shooting, they could easily have backed away, they didn't have to shoot him 9 times, they could have aimed at his legs (he wasn't moving towards them the moment they shot him). And, when you shoot someone, he falls to the ground and stops moving, you don't handcuff him. You make sure an ambulance is called and you practice your first aid skills.

 

I really can't tolerate what has apparently come to have been accepted as normal police behaviour in the US. It's not just about extreme situations as in the video, it is really any interaction between police and citizens. Elsewhere, a police officer standing around would be the first person I ask for directions. In the US, he'd be the last.

[mike777]

Again police are trained to shoot to kill. This is not the movies. They do not shoot in the arm or leg or shoot the knife away. They shoot to kill.

 

If the shooting is not justified ok. But if shooting is justified then deadly force is justified. It is clear many posters don't know American Law or simply hate the law.

 

I have posted the law in MO and a plain reading of the law is it is rather broad. Perhaps Case Law limits it but the law as written in regards to the police and deadly force in the state of MO. is rather broad.

 

Now if you believe black men, young black men in the USA are being murdered by the police and you distrust the police....ok that is your belief.

I don't know the exact stats but if this is roughly true:

 

12 million arrested.

400 killed of all colors by police for any and all reasons \

2012 fbi stats?

 

dO you know without looking on google how many law enforcement killed and wounded in 2012?

[mike777]

21 foot rule.

 

 

If you have a knife and within 21 feet you can kill your opp often before they can shoot with accuracy and stop...

Keep in mind we are discussing seconds...micro seconds. 6 seconds =6 bullets

 

 

This is what police are trained.

 

Again I just wonder if these posters have any idea of police training and deadly force.

 

OTOH if you believe the police are out to murder young black men ok.

 

We are told eyewitness reports tell us this is cold blooded murder.

[cherdano]

If you are saying that the police in this video followed normal police training - then that's exactly my point. There is something wrong with the training, not with the individual officers who pulled the trigger.

[helene_t]

Just for comparison: Iceland in chock after their police killed a guy. This is the first time in the country's history, and the guy shot at the officers first:

 

http://www.pri.org/stories/2013-12-03/iceland-grieves-after-police-kill-man-first-time-its-history

[Mbodell]

Right. There are other ways to handle a situation.

 

I think there are some systematic problems (not just this video and Michael Brown, but also the police treatment of media and others, etc.). I also think of something like the Stanford Prison Experiment and think there may be an aspect of that sort of psychology when you split people up into district groups with one having authority over the other.

 

This doesn't mean the officers should necessarily be charged or anything. But does mean the whole system in general needs examining.

[Mbodell]

Just for comparison: Iceland in chock after their police killed a guy. This is the first time in the country's history, and the guy shot at the officers first:

 

http://www.pri.org/stories/2013-12-03/iceland-grieves-after-police-kill-man-first-time-its-history

 

Iceland is about 1000 times smaller than the US by population. In the US it is hard to tell exactly but there are about 400-800 arrest related deaths a year from police (not all shootings). So if Iceland had a similar rate you'd expect there to be deaths every few years, not once in history.

 

But in general the US has much higher gun death numbers across the population than most countries. Each year in the US more than 1 in 10,000 people die from firearms (more than half suicide, more than 1/3 homicide). Iceland has less than 1/6 that number, and less than 1/10 the firearm homicide rate.

[hrothgar]

 

dO you know without looking on google how many law enforcement killed and wounded in 2012?

 

There was a decent piece on Sully's site discussing some of these numbers

 

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2014/08/21/how-dangerous-is-police-work/

 

The numbers were drawn from http://www.nleomf.org/facts/officer-fatalities-data/causes.html

[mike777]

I am not sure how many college women in Iceland are raped but in the USA 20% of women in college report being raped or sexually assaulted.

 

I don't know how many children are sold for sex in Iceland but per nbc news 200.000 American children each year are sold for sex each year.

 

 

If the numbers I have heard are correct there are 12 million arrests in the usa each year and 400 people in 2012 killed by cops.

 

 

In my old hometown of Chicago...thousands and thousands and thousands have been murdered by thugs many of them children How many in Iceland?

 

btw in general more americans are beheaded than in Iceland by thugs on utube. But then more people were saved on that mountain than by Iceland.

[helene_t]

I couldn't find the number of raped students and junior sex slaves, but the 2010 fish catches for iceland were, according to icestats (metric tons):

Cod    Haddock Saithe Redfish Herring Capelin Whiting Mackerel 	  	  	  	  	  	  	  	 
167630	63866	53718	52815 123653	102196	1091 68820

 

Not sure what this has to do with the topic of this thread, though.

[mike777]

Some posters compared Iceland to the USA and talked of rates of violence. Let us look at all violence and not cherry pick the stats.

 

Many of those raped students and children are raped by young men. Many of the thousands and thousands and thousands of murdered in my lifetime were murdered by young men. There is a fear a of young men in the USA.

 

Keep in mind the top law enforcement officer in the USA at times does not trust the police. The police work for the government. Many people in Ferguson don't trust the police who work for the government.

[Winstonm]

I couldn't find the number of raped students and junior sex slaves, but the 2010 fish catches for iceland were, according to icestats (metric tons):

Cod    Haddock Saithe Redfish Herring Capelin Whiting Mackerel 	  	  	  	  	  	  	  	 
167630	63866	53718	52815 123653	102196	1091 68820

 

Not sure what this has to do with the topic of this thread, though.

 

I think those stats are pretty fishy.

[Winstonm]

Some posters compared Iceland to the USA and talked of rates of violence. Let us look at all violence and not cherry pick the stats.

 

Many of those raped students and children are raped by young men. Many of the thousands and thousands and thousands of murdered in my lifetime were murdered by young men. There is a fear a of young men in the USA.

 

Keep in mind the top law enforcement officer in the USA at times does not trust the police. The police work for the government. Many people in Ferguson don't trust the police who work for the government.

 

This is what I like: non-cherry-picked statistics you can rely on to be accurate. :P

[billw55]

I think those stats are pretty fishy.

Ashamed to admit but I actually lol'd at this.

[Winstonm]

Ashamed to admit but I actually lol'd at this.

 

I am ashamed to admit I wrote it. :o

[Aberlour10]

But does mean the whole system in general needs examining.

 

 

Generally pollice, gun control laws etc... what to hell is going on in a country, in which its quite normal and legal to give 9y old girl the real UZI in the hand with the words... and now full automatic?

[ggwhiz]

Generally pollice, gun control laws etc... what to hell is going on in a country, in which its quite normal and legal to give 9y old girl the real UZI in the hand with the words... and now full automatic?

 

Last year Staples sold a $5 pencil that was 3 feet tall and 10 inches around and I thought, "Oh great a club and a spear all in one for 6 year olds." This must be the NRA's idea of a natural progression?

[barmar]

Blame the NRA, and Congress's perpetual cow-towing to their lobby, for the fact that gun laws for the most part make little distinction between ordinary rifles and handguns versus military-grade weapons. When I was a kid going to summer camp about 45 years ago, riflery was one of the activities, but all we had available were .22 rifles and maybe some kind of pistol. But now, gun ranges can also offer automatic weapons, and they're included in the same parental waivers. I understand that the "industry practice" is that children 8 years and older are allowed.

[Trinidad]

Blame the NRA, and Congress's perpetual cow-towing to their lobby.

I wouldn't blame the NRA. They don't make any laws. The NRA does exactly what they are supposed to do.

 

I would blame Congress. I understand that a large majority of voters wants to tighten gun control. It is time that Congress listens to their constituents. And if they don't, at the next election the voters can tell them to go fishing (or hunting). But for some reason, the voters didn't do that yet.

 

Rik

[billw55]

I would blame Congress. I understand that a large majority of voters wants to tighten gun control. It is time that Congress listens to their constituents. And if they don't, at the next election the voters can tell them to go fishing (or hunting). But for some reason, the voters didn't do that yet.

It is recurring situation in the USA. Come election day, the voters don't actually back up the things they say they want done. I don't know why or what to do about it.

 

This problem exists in Ferguson. The heavily black majority population say they want racial awareness and parity. They could easily elect a black mayor and black city council. But they don't, for some reason. Why not? Our political system offers elections as the way to fix such problems but the people don't seem to use this tool effectively.

 

 

[kenberg]

Blame the NRA, and Congress's perpetual cow-towing to their lobby, for the fact that gun laws for the most part make little distinction between ordinary rifles and handguns versus military-grade weapons. When I was a kid going to summer camp about 45 years ago, riflery was one of the activities, but all we had available were .22 rifles and maybe some kind of pistol. But now, gun ranges can also offer automatic weapons, and they're included in the same parental waivers. I understand that the "industry practice" is that children 8 years and older are allowed.

 

Cow-towing? I had always heard this as the unhyphenated kowtowing, with the kow and the tow pronounced to rhyme with how, but I think I like cow-towing. (

)

 

Here, I think, is why it goes so wrong with Congress, the NRA, and the public:

 

Most people, if asked, favor stronger regulations regarding guns. But for most, it is not a very personal issue. When I was around 8 or 9, I came somewhat close, I can't tell you accurately just how close, to being accidentally hit by an arrow from an archer. I was running in the woods, he was arching, or whatever it is called, in the woods, and the kid in back of me yanked me back as an arrow flew across in front of me. But there were a number of close calls in many ways, and I have never been even close to being shot. Realistically, for me, it is a very low priority danger. So yes, I and many others think we need to get guns under much better control but I think of it as a good for society rather than as a vital personal need for my own safety. And this lessens my insistence, and it lessens the insistence of others.

 

It's a problem. When an industry is very devoted to one issue and prepared to throw mucho bucks at it, that industry often gets its way. This isn't good, but it is a fact.

[blackshoe]

Blame the NRA, and Congress's perpetual cow-towing to their lobby, for the fact that gun laws for the most part make little distinction between ordinary rifles and handguns versus military-grade weapons. When I was a kid going to summer camp about 45 years ago, riflery was one of the activities, but all we had available were .22 rifles and maybe some kind of pistol. But now, gun ranges can also offer automatic weapons, and they're included in the same parental waivers. I understand that the "industry practice" is that children 8 years and older are allowed.

Where are these gun ranges with automatic weapons?

[mike777]

news article about over 1400 children sold for sex over 10 years in a northern English town.

 

The main point was that no one really did much to stop this. They turned away. It seems the number of people arrested and convicted of buying children for sex was something close to zero. The customers get a free pass and they went after a few pimps.

 

The point again is the fear of men, young men. The public puts great pressure on the cops to protect and yet as Ferguson shows there is great distrust of the police and the prosecutor. At times the police give up and turn away.

[hrothgar]

Where are these gun ranges with automatic weapons?

 

You can legally fire fully automatic weapons at gun ranges in both Arizona and New Mexico

There might be other states where this is legal.