Show Me.

[y66]

Good essay this morning by Matt Yglesias about the establishment mindset in Missouri that makes this story so creepy, scary and disturbing. What are the people in Missouri thinking?

[mike777]

Just to back up a minute, police are trained that if they shoot they shoot to kill. They are not trained to shoot one bullet and stop and ask questions. Was the police officer justified in pulling his gun or in shooting his gun is the issue in question. Please note this means if the officer was justified in shooting, a large if, they are justified to kill.

Again keep in mind this all happened in 3 minutes not 3 hours. Fwiw I note in my little town police shot and killed 2 men over the weekend.

--

 

As to the bigger issue why does the town have only 3 police officers of color or so few people of color with political power? Many seem to think it proves a racist and bias mindset. Why are so many more people of color arrested than white people? For many the answer is racism, not that they are guilty.

-------------

 

 

As to the issue of why the police use so much tear gas, rubber bullets and noise grenades the response on CNN was the only other option they have is to use live rounds of fire or do nothing to stop disorder.

[Winstonm]

Good essay this morning by Matt Yglesias about the establishment mindset in Missouri that makes this story so creepy, scary and disturbing. What are the people in Missouri thinking?

 

I had not noticed the lack of identification on the police. Curiously absent.

[mike777]

btw the police just shot and killed another young black man about 4 miles from Ferguson Mo.

[billw55]

btw the police just shot and killed another young black man about 4 miles from Ferguson Mo.

The early story is that this man was wielding a knife and refused to surrender. Although as usual, early stories are rarely correct.

[mike777]

NBC news on their 5pm show just reported Mr. Brown is innocent.

----------

 

I heard this other guy held a knife but that does not justify the govt killing a young man. I hope this is not another blame the victim story.

[Winstonm]

From a Washington Post Op-Ed. This may be the crux of the present matter in Missouri:

Finally, cops are legally prohibited from using excessive force: The moment a suspect submits and stops resisting, the officers must cease use of force.

[mike777]

From a Washington Post Op-Ed. This may be the crux of the present matter in Missouri:

 

It appears a plain reading of the law on the cops using deadly force is rather broad in this case. I don't know how case law limits this rather broad use of deadly force in Mo. It is more limited for persons in general but cops seem to have a rather broad usage.

------

 

Missouri Revised Statutes

Chapter 563

Defense of Justification

Section 563.046

 

August 28, 2013

 

Law enforcement officer's use of force in making an arrest.

563.046. 1. A law enforcement officer need not retreat or desist from efforts to effect the arrest, or from efforts to prevent the escape from custody, of a person he reasonably believes to have committed an offense because of resistance or threatened resistance of the arrestee. In addition to the use of physical force authorized under other sections of this chapter, he is, subject to the provisions of subsections 2 and 3, justified in the use of such physical force as he reasonably believes is immediately necessary to effect the arrest or to prevent the escape from custody.

 

2. The use of any physical force in making an arrest is not justified under this section unless the arrest is lawful or the law enforcement officer reasonably believes the arrest is lawful.

 

3. A law enforcement officer in effecting an arrest or in preventing an escape from custody is justified in using deadly force only

 

(1) When such is authorized under other sections of this chapter; or

 

(2) When he reasonably believes that such use of deadly force is immediately necessary to effect the arrest and also reasonably believes that the person to be arrested

 

(a) Has committed or attempted to commit a felony; or

 

(b) Is attempting to escape by use of a deadly weapon; or

 

© May otherwise endanger life or inflict serious physical injury unless arrested without delay.

 

4. The defendant shall have the burden of injecting the issue of justification under this section.

 

(L. 1977 S.B. 60)

Effective 1-1-79

 

© Copyright

 

 

bottom Missouri General Assembly

http://www.moga.mo.gov/STATUTES/C563.HTM

[kenberg]

From a Washington Post Op-Ed. This may be the crux of the present matter in Missouri:

 

 

From the article that you cited:

But if you believe (or know) that the cop stopping you is violating your rights or is acting like a bully, I guarantee that the situation will not become easier if you show your anger and resentment. Worse, initiating a physical confrontation is a sure recipe for getting hurt. Police are legally permitted to use deadly force when they assess a serious threat to their or someone else’s life. Save your anger for later, and channel it appropriately. Do what the officer tells you to and it will end safely for both of you. We have a justice system in which you are presumed innocent; if a cop can do his or her job unmolested, that system can run its course. Later, you can ask for a supervisor, lodge a complaint or contact civil rights organizations if you believe your rights were violated. Feel free to sue the police! Just don’t challenge a cop during a stop.

 

Although we still do not know with precision just what happened, I doubt that it was in conformance with this excellent advice. If Mr. Brown had gotten out of the street when Officer Wilson told him to do so, I expect that he would be alive today and Ferguson would be the anonymous town that it had always been.

 

The law will now, I hope, follow the evidence and come to the legally correct conclusion, whatever that might be. The writer of the cited article, to his credit, makes no claim of knowing what happened in this specific case.

[Winstonm]

From the article that you cited:

 

 

Although we still do not know with precision just what happened, I doubt that it was in conformance with this excellent advice. If Mr. Brown had gotten out of the street when Officer Wilson told him to do so, I expect that he would be alive today and Ferguson would be the anonymous town that it had always been.

 

The law will now, I hope, follow the evidence and come to the legally correct conclusion, whatever that might be. The writer of the cited article, to his credit, makes no claim of knowing what happened in this specific case.

 

Yes, that is why I posted this like - the article is from a different perspective. It reminded me of another article I read that stated that the most powerful person in the U.S. is not the president but your local police officer. I see that point. Given that much power, we can only hope they are honest and reasonably just.

[mike777]

btw the governor has stepped in and demanded justice for Mr. Brown and his family. No mention of justice for the officer and his family.

NBC news has declared Mr. Brown innocent.

CNN reporters have stated the autopsy justifies the claims of the protesters.

 

I guess it is the contrarian in me senses something amiss when the mass media and the head of government and thousands of protesters if not millions, all come down on one side.

[blackshoe]

Saw an article today based on an interesting picture. Allegedly, two Ferguson LEOs — they were wearing clothes that looked like police uniforms and were armed — had arrested some reporter and were escorting him, holding him between them. However, neither of these "officers" was wearing a badge or a nametag. Must we assume that such people are police officers, just because they claim they are? If we ask to see badge or id and they do not show it, are we justified in assuming they are not police officers, but are in fact criminals impersonating police officers? May we then resist, and if so how much force may we use in doing so?

[mike777]

Saw an article today based on an interesting picture. Allegedly, two Ferguson LEOs — they were wearing clothes that looked like police uniforms and were armed — had arrested some reporter and were escorting him, holding him between them. However, neither of these "officers" was wearing a badge or a nametag. Must we assume that such people are police officers, just because they claim they are? If we ask to see badge or id and they do not show it, are we justified in assuming they are not police officers, but are in fact criminals impersonating police officers? May we then resist, and if so how much force may we use in doing so?

 

But..,but you start with a bias...you start with a framing...

 

 

too much force rather than

 

too little force way too little.

 

 

to be honest this is common...people start with too much force..never with too little force

 

please just read this thread...how many start with too little force? how many threads start with the police do too little far too little

 

-----------------

 

I don't mean to disagree.

 

The story is police state

 

The story is gvt is killing young black men.

 

the story is millions don't trust the police the arm of government. they are killing young black men by the thousands over the past 60 years./

 

 

The government has killed thousands and thousands of black men/of people of color over the past 60 years

 

 

------

 

 

what is the most surprise is the American people think they have killed something close to zero over the past 60 years....just ask them.

[billw55]

NBC news on their 5pm show just reported Mr. Brown is innocent.

Innocent of what?

[kenberg]

btw the governor has stepped in and demanded justice for Mr. Brown and his family. No mention of justice for the officer and his family.

NBC news has declared Mr. Brown innocent.

CNN reporters have stated the autopsy justifies the claims of the protesters.

 

I guess it is the contrarian in me senses something amiss when the mass media and the head of government and thousands of protesters if not millions, all come down on one side.

 

Perhaps someone will write a book, Ferguson: How to turn a tragedy into a large scale calamity. They could devote several chapters to the media. But there will still be plenty of material for other chapters.

[Winstonm]

Saw an article today based on an interesting picture. Allegedly, two Ferguson LEOs — they were wearing clothes that looked like police uniforms and were armed — had arrested some reporter and were escorting him, holding him between them. However, neither of these "officers" was wearing a badge or a nametag. Must we assume that such people are police officers, just because they claim they are? If we ask to see badge or id and they do not show it, are we justified in assuming they are not police officers, but are in fact criminals impersonating police officers? May we then resist, and if so how much force may we use in doing so?

 

y66 posted a link to this article on page 3, comment #51, if anyone would like to see the picture and read the article.

[Winstonm]

btw the governor has stepped in and demanded justice for Mr. Brown and his family. No mention of justice for the officer and his family.

NBC news has declared Mr. Brown innocent.

CNN reporters have stated the autopsy justifies the claims of the protesters.

 

I guess it is the contrarian in me senses something amiss when the mass media and the head of government and thousands of protesters if not millions, all come down on one side.

 

Same with me. When I see someone consistently offering one-sided information I question motivations. (From McClatchy):

 

.... Through a special unit, the department could launch a wide-ranging investigation into a “pattern or practice” of behavior by local law enforcement agencies.

 

....Led by the Special Litigation Section, part of the department’s Civil Rights Division, previous pattern-or-practice investigations have targeted alleged problems at the Family Court of St. Louis County, the Albuquerque Police Department in New Mexico and the Miami Police Department, among others.

 

....In November 2012, for instance, Justice Department officials initiated the probe into allegations that Albuquerque police routinely used excessive force. The 46-page report released in April 2014 concluded that Albuquerque police, who killed 20 people between 2009 and 2012, “often use deadly force” even without an imminent threat of death or serious harm to officers or others.

 

....When completed, these broader investigations can incite systemic reforms. The Pennsylvania Department of Corrections, for instance, instituted improvements following a Justice Department inquiry into the dangers facing gay and transgender inmates.

 

 

Regardless of the outcome of this particular case, there seems to certainly be some kind of problem in Ferguson that needs to be addressed. even if only a problem of perception.

 

P.S. Is CNN still considered a "news" organization?

[kenberg]

 

Regardless of the outcome of this particular case, there seems to certainly be some kind of problem in Ferguson that needs to be addressed. even if only a problem of perception.

 

 

Indeed. And not just in Ferguson.

 

Civilization works because most people largely but into it. We tolerate, some of us even cheerfully, a little variation around the edges. There was a dog that would show up in the yard when I was out mowing. I like dogs and I would play with him a bit. But I guess someone told the owner he can't let the dog run loose since I no longer see Jackson. I miss him, but rules are rules.

 

In some communities, this breaks down. Do a thought experiment. Imagine you are a cop, a couple of young guys are walking down the center of the street, you tell them to get up on the sidewalk, they tell you to stuff it. You do what? If cops largely have the community support then this doesn't happen that often and when it does you can probably cope. If a large, or even a significant, part of the community is on the side of the guys walking down the street and thinks that you should stuff it, you have a problem.

 

In an ideal world, the cop could say "Look, get out of the street now or I'll be telling your grandmother and you know how that's going to go". It's not an ideal world, alas.

[barmar]

In an ideal world, the cop could say "Look, get out of the street now or I'll be telling your grandmother and you know how that's going to go". It's not an ideal world, alas.

I remember that episode of Andy Griffith. That was a world in which Barney Fife could be an effective police officer.

 

Now I wish I were a film-maker, I'd love to do a spoof where Barney Fife found himself relocated to Harlem.

[kenberg]

I remember that episode of Andy Griffith. That was a world in which Barney Fife could be an effective police officer.

 

Now I wish I were a film-maker, I'd love to do a spoof where Barney Fife found himself relocated to Harlem.

 

I did say "ideal"!

OK, so I exaggerated a bit.

I imagine the show exaggerated a bit also.

[blackshoe]

When I was a freshman in college, I went back to my old high school to touch base with some people. Long story shorter, I ended up in my mother's car, on a side street next to the school, talking to a girl I knew. For quite a while. After some time, the cop who was directing traffic on the main drag marched down to us, and told me I was blocking traffic, and to drive up to the corner and park. Which I did, all the while thinking "what traffic? There's been no traffic here." He asked for my license and registration, and then asked "who's Barbara?" "My mother," I replied. After haranguing me for a while, he said "I know your mother well, and I'm going to tell her about this." Then he let me go. I went home. "Hey Mom, you know a cop named Miller?" "No," she said. "That's what I thought." :P

[kenberg]

I remember those days. The cop probably had a daughter of his own. Gotta watch those college boys and see what they are up to with our girls.

[blackshoe]

I remember those days. The cop probably had a daughter of his own. Gotta watch those college boys and see what they are up to with our girls.

:D

[cherdano]

The sickness of overaggressive use of force by the police in the US is best shown by the shooting of Kajieme Powell.

 

http://www.vox.com/2014/8/20/6051377/video-st-louis-police-shooting-Kajieme-Powell

http://www.vox.com/2014/8/20/6051431/did-the-st-louis-police-have-to-shoot-kajieme-powell

 

The telling part for me is that a police union spokesperson commented that this video footage is "exculpatory", when any normal person would think of their behaviour as somewhere between overaggressive, unprofessional, needlessly escalating, and completely insane.

 

Of course, white privilege makes it easier to ignore.

http://www.rogerebert.com/mzs/what-white-privilege-really-means-an-anecdote

[cherdano]

It is actually interesting to think about why I am arguing so much more aggressively than kenrexford above.

Ken is arguing within the system. That's how you win cases - you have to convince judges and possibly jurors, who think within the system.

 

But I want to change the system. If we have come to the point where the police

- comes up to a very clearly mentally ill person who has just committed a minor non-violent crime,

- shouting "GET DOWN OR WE WILL SHOOT" as their first interaction with him,

- shoots him 12 times (despite being armed with at best a knife) because he doesn't follow orders,

- then handcuffs him,

- and the union representative thinks of this behaviour as normal,

then clearly there is a bigger problem.

 

Just think about handcuffing someone whom you have just shot to death with 12 rounds - its completely inhuman behaviour.