Your Minor Suit Structure

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Partner opens 1NT ( 15-17 ) , opps silent, IMPs :

 

1NT - ??

 

Your hand:

x

x

A J T 8 x x

K Q J x x

 

What is your plan ?

[Cyberyeti]

2♠ showing weak with one minor or GF with both then 3♠ to show longer diamonds both minors GF (unless partner shows 4 diamonds or 5 clubs over 2♠ in which case I just keycard), then keycard if partner picks a suit or bid 4♣ to show 6-5 if partner bids 3N (there is another bid for 5-5).

[aguahombre]

If using MSS, this is too easy when Opener shows her 4-card minor. We could bid 4m as 6-key wood.

 

But, of course, my CHO will always bid 2NT because she never has a minor when we need it. With 1-1 equal shortness, I think I would try 4D over the expected 2NT and hope partner is on the same page and we are not already screwed. Can still play it in 4NT if partner chooses.

 

Certainly, the moderns who have chucked 2S MSS for other things will solve this one quite well. I am not one of those.

[mike777]

2s mss then if 2nt reply:

3h=slam try with longer clubs

3s=slam try with longer diamonds.

 

If pard now responds 3nt then 4c rebid now will get the msg across.

[whereagles]

I have a bid for slam invite/force with both minors, and it also works after 2NT: relay bid of 2/3♠, followed by 4NT (NF invite) or 5♣ (forces 6m).

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Partner opens 1NT ( 15-17 ) , opps silent, IMPs :

 

1NT - ??

 

Your hand:

x

x

A J T 8 x x

K Q J x x

 

I didn't have an agreed structure with partner...

... so, I decided to use the dreaded Gerber on this deal :

 

Partner

A K x x

J x x

K Q x x

A x

 

1NT - 4C!

4S - 6D

 

As it was, 6C would have also made .

[Cyberyeti]

I didn't have an agreed structure with partner...

... so, I decided to use the dreaded Gerber on this deal :

 

Partner

A K x x

J x x

K Q x x

A x

 

1NT - 4C!

4S - 6D

 

As it was, 6C would have also made .

 

Our auction would be:

 

1N-2♠(weak one minor or GF both)

3♣(4+♦)-4♥(kickback)

4♠(0/3)-5♦(sign off opposite 0)

5♠(3+K♠)-6♦

[Zelandakh]

Without any structure at all agreed a reasonable approach would be 3♦ followed by 4♣, or the delayed version via 2♣ if this might be taken as non-forcing.

 

5-5 minor hands are a weakness of my preferred structure but this hand is clear enough I think any reasonable approach should get the job done. I have a couple of options but the easiest with this sort of hand is to respond 2♠ (range ask, often a club transfer) and then continue 3♠ (5-5 minors, SI) over partner's 2NT (min) or 3♣ (max). Opener would now show the diamond fit and key card does the rest (1NT - 2♠; 3♣ - 3♠; 4♣ - 4♥; 4NT - 6♦). Of course, since I play a weak NT the real auction would be 1♣(strong) - 1♠(GF, no 4M); 2♦(15-17bal, no 5M) - 2♥(mod MSS); 2♠ (0 or 1 4m) - 2NT; 3♦ - 4♥ (RKC); 4NT - 6♦...but that would be cheating. ;)

[helene_t]

Without special agreements I would transfer to diamonds and ask for keycards. Now suggest clubs if possible.

 

Alternatively, transfer to diamonds and bid 4♣. Now p can take preference for diamonds or he can cuebid supporting clubs. But if he signs off in 4NT or 5♣ we can't ask for keycards.

 

With some partners an immediate 3♦ bid shows a gf with both minors but it has never come up and I am not sure how it works.

[Zelandakh]

With some partners an immediate 3♦ bid shows a gf with both minors but it has never come up and I am not sure how it works.

I do not know what players using this are doing either but if it shows slam interest it seems that 3♥ = ♣; 3♠ = ♦ + bad; 3NT = ♦ + serious + ♠ cue; 4♣ = ♦ + serious + ♣ cue; 4♦ = ♦ + serious + ♥ cue would be a reasonable set-up.

[gszes]

A variety of methods

 

2s mss if cho bids 2n bid 3n which has to be a mild slam try in the minors and no

major suit stops. Hard to imagine this sequence being anything else. Enlighten me.

 

2s relay to 3c and 2n relay to 3d choose 2s then follow up the 3c bid with 3d and

be willing to play 3n if bid by opener.

 

3h minor suit hand with no heart stop (3s if need spade stop). If opener has hearts

stopped and spades stopped they will bid 3n if they have hearts stopped but no spade

stop they will bid 3s. (best used if playing 2s relay to 3c to sign off in either minor).

 

The point of all of these systems is to make p aware of the importance of aces for slam

purposes not just HCP. Note that this seeing eye slam finds opener with only the heart J

and the AK in spades vs say KQJ. If opener has the latter hand 5 of a minor would be

a much better contract and if opener has both majors stopped (with KQJs vs aces) then 3n

is probably our best choice.

[aguahombre]

A variety of methods

 

2s mss if cho bids 2n bid 3n which has to be a mild slam try in the minors and no

major suit stops. Hard to imagine this sequence being anything else. Enlighten me.

I see problems with that. Main problem would be that "no major suit stops" puts the Opener in charge to move or not move over your 3NT without a clue that you have perfect stiffs in both majors. He also hasn't a clue that you are 6-5 with longer in diamonds, and only need 3 of the six keys after the minor fit is found.

[fromageGB]

2♠ MSS then kickback over a 4 card 3m, and over 2NT 3♠"pick a minor" then kickback. Stop in 5m if no good.

Edit : I think a method that uses a "general slam invitation" is prone to opener misjudgement when you have an extreme hand such as this with 2 singletons.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

2♠ MSS then kickback over a 4 card 3m, and over 2NT 3♠"pick a minor" then kickback. Stop in 5m if no good.

Edit : I think a method that uses a "general slam invitation" is prone to opener misjudgement when you have an extreme hand such as this with 2 singletons.

Side issue:

What bids(s) do you use if you have just one long minor ?

[fromageGB]

Side issue:

What bids(s) do you use if you have just one long minor ?

Simple transfers : 2NT-♣, 3♣-♦.

After a transfer, we have 4m+1 as immediate ace asking, 3M GF showing a shortage and asking for NT/minor judgement, and 3NT as a suggestion to play but showing a 6 card minor. Responder raises 3m to 4m as a conditional slam suggestion ace ask. Opener's response to this is first step denial, but acceptance shows aces as if to a 4m+1 ask.

 

We also use 2♠ MSS with only one minor if we want 4 card support to justify looking for slam, as we have no transfer breaks because transfers may be weak. Edit : if opener has 4 cards in both minors he bids 3♣. If responder follows this with 3♦ he must be slam thinking in single suited diamonds, needing 4 card support, so opener can raise diamonds for responder to ace ask, or convert to 3NT without four diamonds.

 

On a related note, we use the 1NT 3M replies as GF both minors with void major.

Edited August 14, 2014 by fromageGB

[Cyberyeti]

Side issue:

What bids(s) do you use if you have just one long minor ?

 

We play 3m nat forcing usually ambitions beyond game

[Lovera]

Partner opens 1NT ( 15-17 ) , opps silent, IMPs :

 

1NT - ??

 

Your hand:

x

x

A J T 8 x x

K Q J x x

 

What is your plan ?

This hand is just for 2♦ Stayman (see my topic 2♦ Stayman in Forum event to know more) : Opener 1NT has ♠ AKxx ♥ Jxx ♦ KQxx ♣ Ax - 2♦(=? for stoppers), 2♠(=AK), 3♦(longness searching fit)-4♦ ending in 6♦.

[Vampyr]

This hand is just for 2♦ Stayman (see my topic 2♦ Stayman in Forum event to know more) : Opener 1NT has ♠ AKxx ♥ Jxx ♦ KQxx ♣ Ax - 2♦(=? for stoppers), 2♠(=AK), 3♦(longness searching fit)-4♦ ending in 6♦.

 

I use 3♦ for this hand. Whit a single minor I transfer.

[Flem72]

3♣ for us(usually 5-5) . O's 3♦ asks short; 3N to play, 4♣ = 6-key, else cues.

 

Along with 3♦ = 5+-5+ majors, this structure is rarely used, but every time it has come up it is a slam/game swing for us.

[Lovera]

I use 3♦ for this hand. Whit a single minor I transfer.

Infact this Stayman convention search for minor suit fit and complete scenario together its sister 2♣ for major suit fit and allow to play NT also. How ? You have this information enter second level when partner bids 2NT meaning that (s)he has sure stoppers in both major suit (i.e. two Aces in heart and spade suit). If it is not starts minor fit search. The 2♣ Stayman, you surely know, allow to play in club when bidder repeat club -3♣(=weak)- than using 2♣ and together 2♦(=strong 11/+ p.) 2♠ is weak transfert and may be used how direct transfert for diamond suit. I anew suggest to see my topic on 2♦ Stayman in Forum event (for combined useing with transfert for heart suit fit-2♦ ambigous), bye.

[Vampyr]

The 2♣ Stayman, you surely know, allow to play in club when bidder repeat club -3♣(=weak)-

 

I'm afraid I didn't understand most of your post, but anyway this rather old-fashioned treatment has fallen out of favour.

 

than using 2♣ and together 2♦(=strong 11/+ p.) 2♠ is weak transfert and may be used how direct transfert for diamond suit.

 

It is very inefficient to use a bid as a weak-only transfer. The point of transfers is that responder gets another call, very often (as in this case) pass with a weak hand and something else with a strong hand.

[Lovera]

I'm afraid I didn't understand most of your post, but anyway this rather old-fashioned treatment has fallen out of favour.

 

 

 

It is very inefficient to use a bid as a weak-only transfer. The point of transfers is that responder gets another call, very often (as in this case) pass with a weak hand and something else with a strong hand.

About first question i can agree and, if it is, you must read "if you use 2♣-2x, 3♣-to pass". Infact this using combined is particolar.

2♦ ambigoeus is a my idea explained in 2♦ Stayman where i remind you (see in BBO Forum event or clicking in this box on Lovera and visualizing my profile via "Find My Content"), bye.

[Zelandakh]

This is a hand type I needed to compromise on in my Puppet structure. Slammy minor 2-suiters are bid through 2♠ (range ask) folowed by 3♠. That will usually result in a worse position than alternatives. That said, the system uses a weak NT and this is a rare hand type in that context.

 

The actual hand would start with a 1♣ opening and then a 1♠ response is followed by 2♣ to show 15-17 balanced. Responder can now continue 2NT to show the minor 2-suiter.

 

To Lovera, you are running many more hand types through your Stayman response than a typical structure. It should be obvious to you that this will have knock-on effects. Sadly I don't find the idea interesting enough to work out where the problems lie - I will leave that to someone else. If you are genuinely interested in feedback I would suggest creating a new thread for it and giving the structure in detail.

[mcphee]

Lucky me uses 3D and both minors GF over which partner has an easy 3S bid as advanced cue bid for D. Assuming they bid 4D rather than 3S I would begin with 4H. Even the NT bidder could bid key card at this point but I can't see missing 6D with these cards.

[Zelandakh]

Lucky me uses 3D and both minors GF over which partner has an easy 3S bid as advanced cue bid for D.

What is your full schedule of advances here? I think I would want to play 3♠ as a diamond fit in a poor hand for slam (and 3♥ similarly for clubs) but perhaps you have something better.

 

Edit: LOL at myself - I see I already wrote something to this effect earlier in the thread.