6 clubs not found

[eagles123]

[hv=pc=n&s=sajhq3dkq72ckqjt3&n=sqt8752hak6d5ca52&d=n&v=e&b=9&a=1sp2cp2sp3dp3np4sppp]266|200[/hv]

 

Imps

 

where did we go wrong?

 

thx

 

Eagles

[Cyberyeti]

Again not a great slam if they lead trumps.

 

You're better placed if you start 1♠-2♣-2♠-3♦-3♥-3♠-3N/4♣, but still not sure you get there. Once you've only rebid 2♠, you're very maximum and can show as many signs of life as you want.

 

Also isn't 3N better than 4♠ at pairs, although this is difficult to realise with AJ opposite what is a known 6 card suit if you open 1N with 5332s.

[whereagles]

I don't think I'd do any better within a 2/1 system.

 

Not without taking a view at least.

[mcphee]

Looks like the right spot to me,although 3N from the S hand at pairs is best. 6C could easily be down and is too risky at pairs.

[kenrexford]

I don't think I'd do any better within a 2/1 system.

 

Not without taking a view at least.

 

A nice start:

 

1♠-2♣

 

2♠(6+)-3♠(fit)

 

3NT(serious)-4♣(2 of the top 3 honors)

 

Now, all that is needed is to have the right follow up. Ideally, if this hand is played in slam, you want to be in 6♣. You need to find the spade Jack or the heart Ace-King-third (as occurred). This might be difficult to unwind.

[PhantomSac]

Again not a great slam if they lead trumps.

 

6C could easily be down and is too risky at pairs.

 

IF they lead a trump, you are almost cold if the DA is on. IF they lead a trump and IF the DA is off, you need a spade hook. So on the best lead you need ~1 of 2 hooks, sounds pretty good to me? If they don't lead a trump you need nothing other than non horrible splits basically.

[PhantomSac]

As far as the auction I think 3D is a ridiculous bid, 2N is totally normal, and importantly leaves more room. For instance 1S 2C 2S 2N 3C is a great start for the south hand, and norths bids have more integrity and are thus more descriptive over 2N since he is not short of room. Over 3D he will have to guess what to do or punt with 3H which is far less defined. There should not be any 2245 hands that bid 3D so 3D is also misdescriptive, I understand people who freak out with 2 small hearts and bid 3D but here you have Qx so 2N is really just a stand out bid.

 

The reason you missed 6C is not because of the 3D bid though, that should have made it easier. North's 3N bid over 3D is just out to lunch, north has a massive hand for clubs and he should make 1 of 2 bids: 4C, direct and to the point "I have a big hand for clubs and have no interest in playing 3N, I want to investigate 6C." Or a more murky advanced cue of 3H, with the plan of never playing 3N and next bidding 4C. Sometimes your intentions get blown out if partner bids 4C or 4D but in that case north can almost drive so maybe 3H is better, but you can't go wrong bidding 4C. North hand the wrong idea when he bid 3N, he did not appreciate what a huge hand for clubs he had, he focused only on his heart stoppers.

[whereagles]

A nice start:

 

1♠-2♣

2♠(6+)-3♠(fit)

3NT(serious)-4♣(2 of the top 3 honors)

 

Well, in the style I play it would be different

 

1♠ 2♣

2♠ 2NT (catch-all, tell me more; denies 3 spades)

 

now opener has to decide whether to show the 6th spade (we could still be 5332) or club support. If spades, we'll probably rest in 4 or 5. If clubs, it may go on

 

3♣ 3♦ (stop)

3NT 4NT

etc. 6♣

 

Oh well.

[PhantomSac]

Well, in the style I play it would be different

 

1♠ 2♣

2♠ 2NT (catch-all, tell me more; denies 3 spades)

 

now opener has to decide whether to show the 6th spade (we could still be 5332) or club support. If spades, we'll probably rest in 4 or 5. If clubs, it may go on

 

3♣ 3♦ (stop)

3NT 4NT

etc. 6♣

 

Oh well.

 

South bidding 3D would be a well judged(?) bid after 1S 2C 2S 2N 3C. He might well bid 3S since he has the AJ of spades and 4S might be the best contract. Over that north has a nice hand but bad spades, they might choose to just bid 4S which south will pass (for 6S to be good south needs 2 spade honors to begin with, plus the rest of the stuff we need). If south bid 3S and north made a move that would obviously get them to 6C, or if south bid 3D focusing on a club slam that should get them to slam, but it does feel natural to bid 3S over 3C.

 

That's why I think the 3D bid should have helped them get to slam, over that north will be thinking clubs all the way and he has a fantastic hand for clubs obviously.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

[hv=pc=n&s=sajhq3dkq72ckqjt3&n=sqt8752hak6d5ca52&d=n&v=e&b=9&a=1sp2cp2sp3dp3np4sppp]266|200[/hv]

 

Imps

I like PhantomSac's 3H over 3D ( post # 7 ) with the intention of showing ♣ next :

 

North

1S - 2C ( 2/1 GF )

2S - 3D

3H - 3S

4C ( this would be a cue ( ♣Ace ) for ♠ -- not necessarily a double-fit ) - 4D

4H - 4NT ( RKC for ♠ )

5S ( 2 + ♠Q ) - 6C ( only 3 key cards in ♠; 4 key cards in ♣ )

 

EDIT: Unfortunately, 6C would not mean "to play" but would be a 3rd Rnd Ctrl-ask; so, if you want to play in a small slam, 6S would have to be bid instead of 6C; but missing 2 key cards, 5S should be passed .

 

Also, "4 key cards in Clubs" is an incorrect statement ... there may be only 3 if the Sp K were shown as a key card instead of the Sp Ace ( the reply to 4NT RKC for Sp ) .

Edited August 26, 2014 by TWO4BRIDGE

[mike777]

Agree with the thoughts that north rebid 4c after 3d.

 

South is unlimited but granted 3d could be a probe for 3nt but still that North hand looks nice.

 

this hand might be a bit tougher at MP, but at imps 4c seems clear.

[helene_t]

2nt is probably not forcing in op's system

[Zelandakh]

As far as the auction I think 3D is a ridiculous bid

Are you taking account that the OP plays Acol Justin? It is written in the signature. 2NT would be non-forcing. Therefore bidding 3♦ followed by 4♠ shows a slam try. That is the best South can do within the system context. It is certainly for North to do more here, although I suspect the majority of Acolites are also going to be in game.

[PhantomSac]

Are you taking account that the OP plays Acol Justin? It is written in the signature. 2NT would be non-forcing. Therefore bidding 3♦ followed by 4♠ shows a slam try. That is the best South can do within the system context. It is certainly for North to do more here, although I suspect the majority of Acolites are also going to be in game.

 

No I was not, I don't play ACOL, and unfortunately don't read signatures. In that case, the system is ridiculous. So 3D does not even promise diamonds, and south might have 3 spades and a slam try (Axx Qx KQx KQJTx)? I don't know how to play this way, what is north supposed to do? A system where you cannot make natural bids since nothing is forcing is a large problem for not being able to find slams.

[Cyberyeti]

No I was not, I don't play ACOL, and unfortunately don't read signatures. In that case, the system is ridiculous. So 3D does not even promise diamonds, and south might have 3 spades and a slam try (Axx Qx KQx KQJTx)? I don't know how to play this way, what is north supposed to do? A system where you cannot make natural bids since nothing is forcing is a large problem for not being able to find slams.

 

Some people would have to bid 3♦ on the hand you give, we could bid 4♣ (3♣ would be GF for us but not for everybody, so 4♣ is a spade slam try), but with the disparity between diamonds and hearts, would probably bid 3♦ anyway, now with that hand, 3♦-3♥-3♠-4♣-4♦-4♥ and you're well placed.

 

I like PhantomSac's 3H over 3D ( post # 7 ) with the intention of showing ♣ next :

 

North

1S - 2C ( 2/1 GF )

2S - 3D

3H - 3S

4C ( this would be a cue ( ♣Ace ) for ♠ -- not necessarily a double-fit ) - 4D

4H - 4NT ( RKC for ♠ )

5S ( 2 + ♠Q ) - 6C ( only 3 key cards in ♠; 4 key cards in ♣ )

 

Doesn't this reach a slam off two aces when the A♥ is the K♠ instead ?

 

also I suggested 3♥over 3♦ in post 2.

[frisbee]

My 2/1 style is similar to whereagles, where 2NT is a "tell me more" bid.

 

I would normally stop in 3NT as well, but if my partner and I were bidding aggressively (because we were behind in a Team game, for example), we might find the slam ...

 

1♠ - 2♣

2♠ - 2NT

3♣ - 3♦

3NT - [Ace or Keycard continuation]

 

2♣ is 100% forcing to game, no exceptions.

2♠ might be only a 5-card suit (5=3=3=2 or a bad 6=4).

2NT is similar to 4th Suit Forcing in 1/1 or Standard American auctions.

3♣ shows 3+card support, therefore likely has a 6+card ♠-suit.

[With 5 ♠s and honor-3rd ♣s, Opener is supposed to raise 2♣ to 3♣.]

3♦ shows a NT stopper and asks for a ♥ stopper.

3NT shows a full ♥ stopper. [3♥ over 3♦ would show a partial NT stopper, asking for help.]

Responder is strong enough to launch into his systemic slam try to find 2 Aces and to gamble on 6♣.

[bluechip10]

I like this sequence:

 

1♠ P 2♣ P

2♠ P 3♦ P

3♠ P 4NT P

5♠ P 6♠ Pass out

 

Rationale: As soon as partner opens 1♠, I am already thinking slam; just a question of where. When partner advances to 3♠, I know he has six spades. So we have a spade fit. Then I find out he has 2 aces and the q of trump. I bid 6♠.

[PhantomSac]

Then I find out he has 2 aces and the q of trump. I bid 6♠.

 

Yeah I mean you're only off two keycards, it is probably Kx of spades onside. You even have the added chance of Kxx of spades onside with 3+ clubs in that hand and no diamond lead!

[SimonFa]

[hv=pc=n&s=sajhq3dkq72ckqjt3&n=sqt8752hak6d5ca52&d=n&v=e&b=9&a=1sp2cp2sp3dp3np4sppp]266|200[/hv]

 

 

I only play Acol on an ad hoc basis as I find all the jumping around and lack of structure confusing. If I was playing at the club I would read the bidding as:

 

1♠ = 4+ spades (denies 4 Hearts if it is only on 4 Spades - with some players that might not be true if Spades very much better than Hearts. I usually ask on style but assume I forgot to ask for this hand). Rule of 19 has crept in.

2♣ = 5+ clubs, clubs longer than red suits and 10+HCP. F1.

2♠ = 5+ spades, denies 4 hearts. Says nothing about extra values and is non forcing

3♦ = forcing (new suit, new level) and this is where I get confused. I think it should show a responder reverse and extra values, a very good 14+ HCP but more likely 15+ HCP with 5+ clubs and 4+ diamonds. 2NT would show some sort of Heart stop (Qx is acceptable to me but not to everyone's liking) and be non-forcing and a minimum 10 to a poor 13 HCP and deny 3 spades. In this context 3H would be a similar reverse)

 

At this point I think North has a problem, or at least I would if I was North and by now I would be thinking that we maybe have something on. 3♥ is generally taken as a stopper ask (sometimes referred to as DAB (Direction Asking Bid)) so 3NT shows a Heart stopper but by-passes the 6th spade. 3 ♠ is taken by many as non-forcing but does show the 6th Spade. 3NT might be seen as a sign off and doesn't show the three good clubs.

 

On balance I think I would would go with 3NT as partner has only shown 14+ HCP, my Spades are poor and although I'm around the top end of a minimum opening I think it is the safest bid to make sure we are at least in game because I'm worrying that 4 Clubs is seen as denying a Heart stop, a 6th spade and non forcing, which would be my worry with an ad hoc partner.

 

South's 4♠ is risky as could be a 5-2 fit and as North I would read South a 3=1=4=5 and would probably start a Blackwood sequence (unlikely to be RCKB at my club) on discovering missing an Ace I might sign off in 5♠ but if its RCKB would probably sign off in 6♠.

 

That's a rather long winded way of saying that I don't know how to get to 6 clubs in a basic Acol style with the average club player. I would console myself in the knowledge that few club players would find 6♣. If we'd stopped in 3NT then those that were in a making 6♠ got lucky.

 

With a good partnership understanding I think 4♣ by North as the 3rd bid should show club support and slam interests if 3♦is also a reverse. At this point cue bids and RKCB should get to slam in Clubs.

[kenrexford]

The key card not being the spade King can be solved with VKCB. Not so much making sure that it's not the diamond.

[Cyberyeti]

I only play Acol on an ad hoc basis as I find all the jumping around and lack of structure confusing. If I was playing at the club I would read the bidding as:

 

1♠ = 4+ spades (denies 4 Hearts if it is only on 4 Spades - with some players that might not be true if Spades very much better than Hearts. I usually ask on style but assume I forgot to ask for this hand). Rule of 19 has crept in.

2♣ = 5+ clubs, clubs longer than red suits and 10+HCP. F1.

2♠ = 5+ spades, denies 4 hearts. Says nothing about extra values and is non forcing

 

 

You play at a very strange club if this is true.

 

What do you bid over 1♠ with a 3334, 3424, or 3433, many pairs don't have a natural 2N available and 2♥ is always 5 for almost everybody round here.

 

Do you really bid 2♥ over 2♣ with ♠AKQJxx, ♥xxxx or with a 7-4 ?

 

Many pairs open 1N with 5♠332 so 2♠ guarantees 6. I also don't see that 2♠ can deny 4♥ but not deny 4♦.

 

Also there is a fair split of people who open 1m and 1M with 4M4m32 so there are implications from that too.

[gszes]

Very important to list your basic system and any special agreements you have so others can comment

on who did what right/wrong. The bidding btn 2/1 and sayc can be significant. The main key here is

that since south gave a delayed 4s bid there has to be slam interest and the north hand is quite

slammish especially since they have never had the opportunity to show club support. IMHO over 4s

it would be a decent idea to introduce 6c since south can convert back to spades if the 2c bid was

temporizing.

[Cyberyeti]

Very important to list your basic system and any special agreements you have so others can comment

on who did what right/wrong. The bidding btn 2/1 and sayc can be significant. The main key here is

that since south gave a delayed 4s bid there has to be slam interest and the north hand is quite

slammish especially since they have never had the opportunity to show club support. IMHO over 4s

it would be a decent idea to introduce 6c since south can convert back to spades if the 2c bid was

temporizing.

 

 

Read his sig - "Unless stated, hands I post will be MP and bid with Acol "

[wank]

even playing acol 3s should be forcing imo (yes, i know very well that most acol players would play it as invitational). i bid that as i'm lacking any useful forcing bids (not the first time an acol player has encountered that problem). if north cues 4c and 4h, south might go back to clubs for slam, but this is rather double dummy.

[NickRW]

I think, given the context of the system chosen, North has to go on over 4♠. For South to GF with 3♦ and quite possibly looking for P to have a ♥ stop, only to then remove 3NT to 4♠, is very slammy. In that context North must go on: the hand has 5 controls, 6331 shape, concealed club support and is not a rock bottom min opening.

 

How to go on is another matter. P will presumably think ♠ are trumps if you RKCB it. 5♣, to me, hardly gets the message across and anything else commits you to 6 anyway. So I vote for an agricultural 6♣

 

Nick