every style has its holes

[mike777]

For this thread only please assume:

1) pard opens most junky 11 pt hands very often, less with shape but not insane.

2) 2/1=gf and 14+

3)2d = only promises 4 but expect 5+often.

4) 2s promises 6 not 5, it is not some default minimum.(yes I know many of you prefer this)

5) 3d does not promise any extras, in fact it does not promise 4d 100% 2nt would be natural.(YES PARD can often still have a minimum hand).

6) 3h shows stopper or advanced cue...it does not ask, if you prefer to lie...ok.live with it.

7) 3s resets spades as trumps.(yes you may hate this but pard will take this as a slam try)

8) you play kickback if that matters at the 4 level.

9) 2nt rebid by pard would be natural and very often suggest 11-13 range but not 100%

10) did I say partner opens on junky 11 very often?

11) opener will almost never have 14+balanced hand(not 100% there are exceptions, but close),

 

Every system has its weakness, this is ours.

For this thread you find you are playing the above. You have no perfect bid....your choice of least evils and why?

 

 

1s=2d

3d=?

 

Ax...xxx..AKQxx...QJ9

[MrAce]

What do you play 4 NT now? Key card hands can go thru cues or simply 4 dia even if you don't play minorwood. Just curious.

[mike777]

What do you play 4 NT now? Key card hands can go thru cues or simply 4 dia even if you don't play minorwood. Just curious.

 

to be honest 4nt over 3d would be quant raise. not kcards ;again I would assume pard has a minimum hand at this point. A very rare bid but ok.

 

4h would be clear ace ask in d.

 

For sake of discussion if opener has lots of extras(17+?) pls assume this is not a problem.

[yunling]

Here 3♥ shows stopper rather than ask is a bit odd. If so then your 3NT usually denies a heart stopper, am I right? :D

[mike777]

Here 3♥ shows stopper rather than ask is a bit odd. If so then your 3NT usually denies a heart stopper, am I right? :D

 

3nt would show h and club stopper or you just want to play 3nt.

 

hence the problem :)

 

you expect a lot from your opener pard :)

 

in general pls assume 3h shows h stopper or advance cuebid or a lie. At this point pls assume it worries clubs

 

again I know I force upon you guys an imperfect bid, a least of evils..

[whereagles]

The system puts you to a guess. My guess is 3NT.

[Antrax]

My guess is mike wants us to bid 3NT off five heart tricks where his partner had a non-minimum opener where 6♦ was cold and 7 on a finesse, or something. At least, that's the impression his follow-up posts give.

[Zelandakh]

Does 3NT now not simply show 14-16 without 3 spades or a heart stopper? If not then I do not think I have understood the system.

[kenrexford]

Does 3NT now not simply show 14-16 without 3 spades or a heart stopper? If not then I do not think I have understood the system.

The system has a way to ask for a club stopper but not for a heart stopper. 3NT is just to play and neutral. Playing 3H as asking just shifts the problem to an inability to ask for a club stopper.

 

Structurally, the best way might be a heart ask because Opener is more likely to bid hearts naturally despite the diamond fit, such that 3D on average has weaker hearts.

 

One solution is for Opener to not raise diamonds without a stopper in one of the two suits, or an intention to bid past 3NT, but this may be too limiting.

 

A better solution, perhaps, in this specific auction, might be to have a jump rebid of 3H as a diamond raise with no heart stopper, a sort of strange application of a Bloomer. Responder will be able to know that 3D then promises a heart stop and can focus on the club suit as the system is designed. After 3H, there issstill a hole if Opener lacks either stopper, but we're better. The "Bloomer" would have many other interesting benefits, as well.

 

This treatment would not be as effective after a 1H opening.

[Zelandakh]

The system has a way to ask for a club stopper but not for a heart stopper. 3NT is just to play and neutral. Playing 3H as asking just shifts the problem to an inability to ask for a club stopper.

Not sure I agree with this Ken. It seems to me that the hand we cannot handle is one requiring a stopper in both side suits. With that Opener presumably has to rebid in NT rather than raising diamonds. If we have a club stopper but not hearts we bid 3NT; if we have stoppers in both suits then 3♥ followed by 3NT over a 3♠ grope; and if only a heart stopper then 3♥ followed by something other than 3NT over 3♠.

 

Basically we have 3 sequences and 4 hand types so one has to be sacrificed. Your first solution takes away Opener's hand without a stopper, thus removing the problem case of stoppers in both suits. Your "bloomer solution" splits Opener hands by heart stopper, fixing the issue over 3♦ but creating a new one over 3♥. My idea takes out Opener hands with stops in both suits, thus removing the problem case of no side suit stops. I think this latter structure is going to much more intuitive for most players even if you feel it is theoretically weaker.

[kenrexford]

Zel, maybe I should revise but with the same principle.

 

2NT if stoppers in both rounds.

3H if a heart stop, and hence no club stop.

3D if no heart stop. 3H by Responder says hearts covered but not clubs.

 

Or, 3H with a club stopper no heart, 3D no club stop, 3H asking if prefer asks to shows. This avoids the delay of the grope, and it solves all stopper holes.

[the_clown]

I would bid 4♦. I cant see a way to inteligently make partner declarer in 3N and 3NT from my side doesnt appeal.

 

3♥ could work, but when it doesnt it will fail spectacularly, possbily hurting partnership trust.

 

4♦ looks down the middle, hoping to play 4♠ or 5♦ and keeping partner in the picture.

[mikeh]

I'd play a better system. For example, 2♠ as the default bid for opener with nothing really to say is infinitely better than having to raise 2♦ to 3♦ because one can't rebid 2N or 2♠. As an illustration of just how silly this method is, system constraints include the possibility that the partnership may have reached 3♦ in 3 calls and be on a 4-3 fit.

[Fluffy]

People want a decent system to answer, I just want a dealer, a vulnerability and a form of scoring.

[MrAce]

I'd play a better system. For example, 2♠ as the default bid for opener with nothing really to say is infinitely better than having to raise 2♦ to 3♦ because one can't rebid 2N or 2♠. As an illustration of just how silly this method is, system constraints include the possibility that the partnership may have reached 3♦ in 3 calls and be on a 4-3 fit.

 

Why not answer the OP question in the context in which it is asked, and, if appropriate, add that it is possible to deal with these hands using ....

 

:-P

 

I am just messing with you Mike :-) You know you are my hero.

[mike777]

Thanks for the responses. This was not my hand but an email problem.

 

If responder has only 4d I expect they will have 3s or perhaps 2-4-4-3.

 

I expect that opener will rebid 2nt with the vast majority of balanced minimum hands without 4d. Ya this means we still may not have a h stop.

 

I don't know openers hand.

 

Again thanks for taking the time to post.

[AreyHakaal]

The clear cut bid in my opinion is 3 Spade ,cue bid which denies a heart control and asking partner to cue bid further up the line if he does possess Heart control.If he only has a guard in hearts like QJx he will bid 3 NT which is what we will play.